Exterior Rigid Foam Under Sheathing?
In my local area there is a green building consultant that recommends a CI panel which is basically EPS foam glued to OSB. The way this is installed would be the OSB to the exterior. Almost every house I see with exterior rigid foam in my online wonderings is covered with blue and pink XPS, the OSB sheathing is nailed directly to the studs and is completely covered with the rigid foam. This leads me to the following questions:
– Is anyone familiar with these kind of CI panels?
– Is there any benefit to putting the sheathing on the exterior side of the rigid foam as seen in these products?
– Why does adding rigid foam on the exterior of house sheathing seem more prevalent than sheathing to the exterior?
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Sheathing is normally applied directly to the studs to provide structural resistance to diagonal racking of the wall framing. A layer of ESP interposed between the studs and the OSB breaks that direct mechanical connection, so the arrangement your consultant describes would only pass inspection if a) the panel is specially engineered to provide such bracing - look up insulated structural sheathing - or b) if the framer includes alternative bracing provision such as let-in diagonals or proprietary steel bracing elements.
Google ZIP-R ZIP SYSTEM from Huber. It's slick stuff.
Benefits: Ease of construction. Less steps required = lower chance of error. Easier to built a rain screen, no messing around with house wrap (at least with ZIP-R), only have to tape seams once.
The one downside is that sheets which have thicker pieces of foam (ex R12) will require additional structural bracing for the framing. So if you wanted to do a really high R-value wall it might be easier to just throw up OSB first and then attach the foam.
Here is a link of a GBA contributor who is in the process of finishing his house in Georgia (CZ3) and he used ZIP-R.
https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/green-building-curmudgeon/topping-out
Joshua,
Here is a link to a GBA article that explains everything you need to know about the type of wall panel you are talking about: Nailbase Panels for Walls.
Is there any code compliance issue with installing 1"xps to the studs, followed by 1/2"ply sheathing and tyvek? Wouldn't this be a cheaper alternative to huber zip r?
Martin,
Thank you for the link, that is the article I was hoping to find. I wouldn't have thought of the keywords "Nailbase Panels" though. I kept searching under CI panel.
Put the foam on the outside. Not BETWEEN the studs and OSB. You won't regret it.
Joe,
Sticking with the foam to the exterior of the sheathing is the direction we are heading. Now we are digging into the details on the exterior EPS panels. Trying to figure out the most cost effective product in our area that meets our requirements. Whether the product should be faced for the walls /foundation and whether a single thick layer versus 2 overlapping thinner layers is better. Any advice in these areas?
I used 2.5 inch single layer white EPS but two overlapped layers are certainly a little better. I taped the seams with 3M all Weather tape and since I used reclaimed foam, any little gouges or voids, I added some Great Stuff I need a can. It is remarkable how much warmer the OSB is when it has the foam outside.
Joshua,
Also consider using reclaimed foam on your project. It is much less expensive than new material and is more environmentally friendly. One source is Insulation Depot or, possibly, your local Craigslist.
I second Steve Knapp. I found a guy in Oneonta NY on the Craigslist there. He has a business model that buys foam from demolition contractors tearing down the last remnants of industry in the northeast. Vast industrial warehouses, refrigerated warehouses, massive factories, old shopping malls and the such all over New York State and Pennsylvania are being put to the wrecking ball each day, and the demo contractors are keen to recycle and scrap, obviously. He buys the stuff they get off the roofs generally. I bought very nice two and a half inch EPS for my walls and also some high density three inch XPS that I used under my concrete attached porch slabs of which much of my house has on the perimeter. Nonetheless it is call Hickory Street Rentals. He even delivered it to me in Saratoga County and ultimately I saved half or more. I figure I rate the EPS at R eleven or so.
@Joe
Why would you not want to have the foam layer on the interior side of the sheathing? It really makes no difference.
Exterior foam is a compromise. It's more work, requires more material, more difficult to hang a rainscreen, flashing details can be more complex.
The only advantage of exterior foam is cost and the fact that you can push the R-value a little higher if you need it (most of the time you don't).
John,
There are two advantages I can think of. With foam on the outside the sheathing can supply the necessary shear resistance to the walls, and keeps the sheathing warmer. How much the second matters depends on climate.
@Malcom.
Agree. Additional shear bracing may be required with thicker levels of foam. That and cost are the primary issues (R6+).
IMO the warmth of the sheathing is only a problem to be solved when using exterior foam in general.
If the sheathing is on the exterior of the foam then drying isn't a concern because interior vapor will never reach the sheathing and the sheathing will always dry to the exterior (especially with any rainscreen). IMO that's a win-win.
John,
I just brought up climate because of our (perhaps unique) situation here. In the PNW exterior sheathing sustains a bit of damage over time simply because of the high outside humidity levels over a large part of the year. Exterior foam would alleviate that.
Thinking of using EPS 1-1/2" thick under exposed floor framing with foam insulation...then MDO plywood as finish on top of (or rather beneath) the EPS. Can plywood be nailed or screwed ok to TJI framing above without any problems, or is some type of nailer needed? Also, how would you secure the EPS to the bottom of theTJI's before adding the plywood below? Cap nails? adhesive?
I'm guessing this is part of a basement project, so you're planning to install a layer of EPS under the TJI joists, then plywood under that, secured with screws into the lower chord of the TJI joists? I don't see a problem here, unless you need a fire-rated ceiling assembly which would probably require a layer of drywall.
I would use regular construction screws for this. I'd tack the EPS up with a few light-duty screws first, then put the plywood over the EPS using enough regular construction screws. I would stagger the sheets a little so the edges of the EPS and plywood don't line up.
Note that you don't want to penetrate into the web -- the OSB center -- of the TJI joist. If you pick screws that will only go 1" or so into the lower chord you'll be OK. Most of the restrictions with TJIs have to do with cutting holes in the web, or cutting the chords (don't ever cut the chords). Nailing or screwing into the chords isn't usually a problem.
Bill
thanks....actually, we completed the work about a week ago...the contractor tacked up the EPS with some PL adhesive after installing 2 x 4's to support all edges of the 4'x8' MDO sheets...then power nailed the MDO sheets...came out good.
I came across EP&B systems that put 2" insulation on 2x4 walls with 2x6 top and bottom plates, and sheathing over it. I like the detail and that is what has got me thinking about alternate, less expensive ways, and to this post.
What about a site replicated ZIP-R panel. First attach 1/2" foam board, then attach the ZIP panel. With only 1/2" between the sheathing and stud is there really an issue with the wall panel providing the strutural support?
I like the idea because it keeps the sheathing on the outside and a better nailing surface and more durable during the course of construction. I also like having the two layers with staggered joints and the thermal break.
Another big driver for me is I already have a pallet of ZIP sheathing, not ZIP-R. Is anyone aware of the structural issue of putting 1/2" under the sheathing?
user ...072,
A site built Zip-R should perform much like the manufactured version if you adhere to their fastener schedule. I'm not sure it's worth doing unless you use thicker foam th0ugh.
Some quick calculations are that the 1/2" (R2.5) foam would increase whole-wall insulation by about 25%. The (surprisingly, to me) big bump is because the 2x4 are such a big thermal break (assuming R4.4 for studs; .5 for OSB, .7 air layer, 13 for fluffy, and 2.5 for 1/2" foam, framing factor 17%). If my calculations are correct, 1" foam (R5) would provide ~50% increase in whole-wall insulation for a typical 2x4 wall. In a moderately cold or hot climate, I suspect the additional insulation would be noticeably more comfortable.
Part of the decision of going with the 1/2" is my uncertainty of the thickness between the stud and the sheathing to disrupt the structural performance, but like what Malcom points out I think I am ok, I will run it by the inspector to see if he has issue.
The other reason is the 1/2" I can get where I am located. I think the cost is worth it to add the thermal break, even if the R-value is great. But I will look for 1" and see how the numbers work out (cost/r).
Last think (well likely not), am I right in thinking that while the overall r-value increase is not substantial, the increase to the performance of the wall (by providing a thermal break) could make the added layer worth it? I am new to this type of building science and not sure if I am misunderstanding some of these concepts.
Anyway, I appreciate your reply and sharing your analysis of this detail!
User...072,
Unfortunately a thermal break is a bit of a misnomer. It doesn't really break anything or increase the wall's performance - except in the way any other material does by adding a bit more resistance to heat loss. The layer of foam simply increases the R-value of wherever it is in the wall. So using Johnfc's values, the 1/2" foam adds R2.5 at the studs and the same to the insulated cavities.
Given that, the decision is how much more R-value do you want, weighed against the increased complexity and price of thicker foam. At a certain point you need to strap the walls and build window bucks, so a layer of thin foam may be the right fit for your project.
The issue you're likely to run into with the inspectors is the "must be part of a LISTED ASSEMBLY" part of the codes. Huber has done lab tests on their Zip products, so if you follow their fastener schedule, you have known levels of structural performance from the panels. Huber has lab results to back this up, so they can say FOR SURE how well their product will perform as long as it's installed according to their specifications.
The problem with a site-built panel is that it hasn't been tested, so you MIGHT get the performance you expect, but maybe not. Engineers do not like "maybes", and inspectors are mostly making sure you follow the engineering. Question marks tend to fail inspection. I do agree with Malcolm that if you have a comparable OSB panel fastened the way Zip would be, you'll probably be close in terms of structural performance, but "probably works" is the same as "might fail". That's where you run into trouble.
If you just put the foam on the exterior of the sheathing you'll be fine though. The entire issue when doing framing/foam/sheathing is that you have a lot of nails in shear with lots of nail in foam, and foam isn't structural. This means you risk a lot of bending of those nails, which is how you can have structural failure.
Bill
I just recently posted a question on this topic, but came across this post.
I am think fo going this same route for my home build. We are using ZIP sheathing, not ZIP R. Was think of adding a 1" EPS foam board to the back side of the ZIP and hanging and taping it like normal. Not sure what ZIP recommends for fasteners on there 1" ZIP R product? But it seems to me it would be a lot easier and less labor on my end if the foam was between the studs and the sheathing.
Also my first ideas for wall assembly were to use 2x6 wall, ZIP sheathing, 1" spray foam, stabilized cellulose, drywall.
Now I'm leaning towards getting rid of the spray foam and adding an inch of foam between the ZIP and the studs?
What are your thoughts?
Thanks
Alex
Alex did you read Bill’s post #23 in this thread?
Basically, your idea is not allowed by code without an engineers stamp on your set of plans.
Would your idea work maybe but is any engineer willing to put his stamp on it without destructive testing seems unlikely given that once his stamp is on the plans should any problem arise, he is now responsible to fix it.
If you refuse to consider exterior insulation then pony up the money and buy the Zip+R.
I think spray foam in new construction is an avoidable mistake given a little planning.
Walta