Windows for my Pretty Good House
Hi all
Another question for the experts here at GBA–this time about what windows I should install in my Pretty Good House (PGA). I’ve written here before about this house and you can likely find the threads of previous questions. Basically, we’re building a single level, 1700 sf house in Hood River, OR and we’re trying to meet PGA and passive solar “standards”. Currently, we’re trying to decide what windows to put in this house, and the candidates are:
Marvin Integrity
Milgard Ultra
Intus Arcarde or Eforte
From my research, i think we’re talking about quite different windows here in terms of quality, SHGC, U-values, etc. The house has a nice south facing orientation with large eaves all around. Lots of glazing to the south and the cooling load of the house is estimated to be higher than the heating load. I think the Intus windows are the way to go–but their lead time is 12 weeks and their cost is higher (shipping is very high). But, I’m just not sure what kind of “compromises” we’re making if we go with the other brands. We can certainly get Marvin and Milgard a lot faster.
I’m probably not providing enough information for you all, but let me know. If you’d like to offer some advice or opinions, I’d appreciate it.
Cheers
Matt
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Replies
Matt,
Everybody's different. Some people choose their windows based on their appearance or the smoothness of their operation.
For me, the most important information is the glazing specifications (especially, the SHGC and U-factors). If you aren't sure of those numbers, I would contact the manufacturers and determine them. Remember that it's important to get consistent data; ask for numbers that comply with NFRC requirements (that is, whole-window numbers, not glazing-only numbers).
Once you have that information, you may be able to make your decision. For more information, see All About Glazing Options.
HI Matt. I'm interested in any responses as well. I'm building a new "Pretty Good House" standard in Sedona AZ and would like to trade emails to discuss your building choices, R-values, air tighteness blower door test standard, mechanicals, ect. If you are open, I'm at [email protected]
One thing to keep in mind about Marvin's windows is that they have terrible air infiltration problems. Marvin doesn't advertise their air infiltration number like most companies do and it's next to impossible to find it. You have to assume it's the worst allowed by law: 0.3. I was seriously considering them for my recent window replacement project but had to pass on account of that.
I just helped a friend shop for new windows and he settled on Milgard windows. When we compared specs, the Milgard units were fairly impressive for a major brand.
You might check local window companies, too. Sometimes you can find a better value than you could with a big national company or a faraway specialty firm like Intus where you'll get hammered by the shipping charges.
To me "pretty good house" level windows would be the best vinyl double-panes you can buy (U-0.26 or so), an affordable fiberglass window, or lower-end triple-panes if they're in the budget. It's easy to spend comically large amounts of money on glazing if you let yourself!
Thanks all for the advice. Windows are complicated and challenging--for us, it's trying to find the best windows possible (performance and mechanics) for a reasonable price. Although I like the Intus windows--and European windows in general--it seems silly to ship these things all the way from Lithuania!! The search continues--and I will look into a local manufacturer--Pozzi--see what they offer.
Matt,
Out of that list there is no doubt that Intus would provide the best quality and best efficiency out of those three choices. I would definitively stay away from Milgard. I've have nothing but problems with them. Have you gotten any bids from Intus? The lead time is not that bad because in construction time, things can be measured and ordered while other projects continue. It's all about timing.
Bids are enlightening: Milgard 13K, integrity ultrex 12.5K, ultrex and wood 16K, Intus 17K--plus 4K shipping! Energy modeling revealed a max of about 50 bucks in total costs per year between the best and worst performing window. Thus, it begs the question of whether it's penny-wise to spend several thousand dollars more for windows that don't make THAT much difference in performance. Thoughts? We're leaning heavily toward the Integrity windows. Now the question is changing to: all Ultrex or Ultrex/wood?
Matt,
Your "50 bucks" comment made me think of this article, which you might want to read:
Study Shows That Expensive Windows Yield Meager Energy Returns.
My house (in final phases of construction) is in a colder climate (zone 6, NH) than yours, but we chose Alpen over Integrity because the specs were much better, and not much more expensive. Might give Alpen a look if there is a solid dealer in your area.
As you're finding, you just have to dive into the window shopping experience with your own needs/budget in mind.
One thing to keep in mind is installation. Having a well flashed and well sealed mid range window is better than a poorly installed higher end window. Whether you're DIY or not, make sure you're informed on best techniques and materials (good tapes, etc).
Brian
The limitation I found with Marvin Integrity for a project in NH was that you can get triple pane, and you can get high SHGC, but you can't get triple pane with high SHGC. The triple pane option only has one coating option, and it's the low SHGC option. Great if you are worried about cooling load; not so much if you are worried about heating load. Depends on your site, climate, and orientation.
I'm curious about the comment on Marvin not being air tight...is that across the board for all types or are the casements better?
We ended up with Loewen, a decision that was helped by the fact that they have a discount on triple-pane through sometime in December.
The runner up was Fiberframe Comfort Line, which seems to be the same thing as the Canadian fiberglass windows, at a lower price.
Matt,
If you used RESFEN for your energy modeling the results will be inaccurate. RESFEN is an outdated free government software program that puts out inaccurate modeling.
Triple panes will produce better energy numbers when a proper energy modeling program is used. Another factor to consider is that sitting next to a triple pane window like Intus during winter will be a comfortable event while sitting next to a double pane will not. The "cold draft" effect or convection is noticeable with a double pane window during a cold winter day while sitting next to a window.
I found RESFEN to be comically inaccurate as well, so I ordered Manual J did my own Manual J calculation. I discovered that the double-glazed U-0.26 SHGC 0.21 - 0.32 windows I ended up choosing were projected to only cost me about $30 more per year than heat mirror windows from Alpen that were $6,000 more expensive! 200 years for the savings to achieve parity...
If money is no object, or you're in like an arctic climate where the sun never shines, these super deluxe windows may make financial sense, but otherwise IMHO the best intersection of cost and value--especially in a mixed climate--can be had with mid to high end vinyl or fiberglass double-pane windows with carefully chosen glazing packages and good shading.
Also, window technology is advancing so fast that it may even make sense to deliberately go for a cheaper option and assume that what exists in 20 years will be so much better that you'll actually want to replace them at that time anyway.
While I don't recommend any particular window brand, you might find what you are looking for just north of the border.
http://www.innotech-windows.com/sites/default/files/uploaded_files/innotech_triple_glazed_finalweb.pdf
I'm a big fan of the Energy Star Jeld-Wen windows that are on the shelf at Home Depot. Not because they are a great window, but because HD's purchasing power has brought the price down:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-V-2500-Series-Left-Hand-Sliding-Vinyl-Window-8A0584/203645490?N=5yc1vZar7z
That's under $10/sq. ft. for a pretty good window. That's three to eight times cheaper than the alternatives. The higher first cost of better windows cannot be recouped by energy savings during the life of the window.
Some folks don't love cheap vinyl, myself included. The Milgard Ultra is fiberglass. I have ten year old Milgard Ultras than look like they were installed yesterday. But from four feet away, they look exactly like vinyl windows.
Note: You can't get high SHGC with the Jeld-Wens, and the in-stock sizes are very limited. But you won't find a better way to reduce the budget by about $7,000. Custom sizes are available of course, but they cost about double.
I just built a rental house with the HD windows, and we couldn't feel or see any window air leaks during the blower test, using an infrared camera. We are going to take another look at them using a smoke pen here in a few weeks.
One word of caution on Energy Star Jeld-Wen windows. When I replaced my windows 4 years ago (before I started reading GBA), I looked into using Jeld-Wen Energy Star windows. They were aluminum-clad, vs vinyl clad from my other choice, seem nicer and they were cheaper. My installer much prefer them to my other choice, and had a great local supplier, so we both wanted to go with them, but we discovered that there was a problem with the windows they were supplying to this area (Maryland just outside Washington DC). This is the comment that the supplier gave us:
"For tax credit the gov’t plan calls for a U-value that is .01 difference to the original proposal. To achieve this window manufactures have to put a chemical on the interior of the interior pane of glass that makes the glass prone to scratching and may cause a hazy view in hot summer months. "
The supplier wasn't very happy with this window, and I ended up going with my other choice which didn't have to do anything extra to meet the Energy Star requirement. Now I know that this was almost five years ago, and most manufactures use different glazing options depending on a number of different factors, so these windows could be greatly different then the ones they would sell to you. I'm sure that Jeld-Wen has switched glazing since then to fix this problem, but if you're thinking about going with Jeld-Wen, I would double check with the manufacture about this issue.
I don't get the cold window folks. Who "sits next to a cold window in the winter?" On a nice cold day I sit next to my nice warm fireplace, lol.. I might sit next to a nice window for a view to enjoy the nice warm sun shining brightly in... and since I have feet I usually migrate the the nice warm fire side when the big ball of fire sets.
For windows we just purchased some vinyl windows for a low cost project that have triple pane glass an R-5 rating of some nature that cost half of what we could buy locally. We found the Chicago company online. They manufacture and sell direct.
AJ Builder, we're building a house on the Missouri/Illinois border. Would you be willing to share the Chicago window supplier you used? Thanks either way.
Matt,
We have been renovating our house room by room and I have decided to use a combination of casement and fixed (picture) Marvin wood ultrex integrity windows. The first room we did I used the double pane units and specified cardinal low-e 180 glass. (low u-value, high SHGC) The wood ultrex has a lower u-value of .28 vs a .30 for the all ultrex.
Last winter that first part of the house was the only one finished. We had an extremely cold winter here in Wisconsin and every morning if I had left the curtains closed there was condensation and sometimes frost on the lowest part of the glass. We had many nights well below 0*F which along with the humidity level in that room and trapping cold air with the curtains leads to the condensation. It is a bedroom where we slept with the door closed. I meticulously air sealed and insulated the room, I am hoping that once we finish the house and have an HRV installed that will alleviate humidity problems in the bedrooms with the doors closed.
As we have progressed with the house this year I have ordered all Marvin triple pane wood ultrex windows and I am looking forward to how they perform this winter. Condensation should not be an issue I am told. Only problem with the triple pane is you can only get it in wood ultrex and you cannot specify glazing. They do have much better specs .20 and .18 u-factor (casement/fixed) They are quieter as well which is a bonus. I tried to go up the ordering chain at Marvin and get a special approval for different glass with the triple pane since Cardinal does have different offerings but Marvin said no.
Final thoughts about the Marvins
With these casement windows I really love how easy they crank open and closed.
If I were to order double pane windows in the future I would only order all ultrex out of fear of condensation and rotting wood.
I can order and have a window delivered in less then 10 days which is great
Marvin could do a better job cleaning up glazing putty around the outside of the window.
I wish the frames were insulated
I did try to price out some other windows and they were all too expensive compared to these. I tried Alpen and Wasco.
If I were to build a new house I would probably look into a different manufacturer for a fiberglass triple pane, use tilt/turn style, order them all at once and rent a storage shed if need be to offset the build/shipping time factor for imported windows.
I hope that helps
Didn't I say before that windows were complicated? :) Still going down the road here window-wise and a decision hasn't been made yet. The article from Martin was eye opening--getting some idea of performance vs. costs and understanding the pay back period seems important.
The question here is--what are good windows for a PGH? By asking that question, I'm assuming that Passive House certified windows are out--they're too expensive and overkill. PH builders, I assume, have to use them. It seems to me there are a lot of good windows out there that would be fine for a PGH--but making the decision isn't easy.
Currently, we are leaning towards Integrity, probably all Ultrex. We have been working with Marvin to customize SHGC a bit for our project--we'll see how it goes. William, I appreciate your real-life insights into this brand. I think from a cost/performance perspective, these are "pretty good windows". You always feel like your missing something, however. I've always felt that for our project, which is really trying to target PGH "standards", we were somehow compromising by going with a set of double paned, moderately performing windows. But maybe not--after thinking about the difference in energy savings between super-duper and just plain old good windows, it seems that this indeed may be the way to go for those of us trying to build a PGH.