Replies

1. Expert Member
   MALCOLM TAYLOR | Apr 24, 2019 07:36pm | #1

   Brian,

   The caulking , the WRB (in you case the Tyvek), and the flashing tape are all back up for the cladding and trim - you could call them a secondary layer of protection. So if the cladding and trim are installed correctly, in theory there should not be any issues.

   That secondary layer comes into play if moisture is able to get past the first one, or if over time the first one deteriorates as things age and shrink, or the surface caulking isn't maintained.

   The photos of your windows seem to have disappeared form your post so I'm working from memory, but the trim details around your windows looked like it provided good protection for the layers underneath, so worries about immediate leaks are probably unfounded.

   That leaves long term potential damage. Any water that gets by your siding should be stopped from getting into the rough framed opening by proper caulking and flashing tape. And the rough opening should be protected from any water that does make its way there by a sill pan and proper lapping of the WRB below the window. That's what you don't have, and the reason we now install windows with those elements was because we saw that the areas around old ones often had rot and damage from small, but regular wetting.

   So even if the windows don't leak enough to notice now (or ever) that doesn't preclude problems over time.

   Here are two videos showing the lapping of the various layers depending on whether you install the WRB first or after the window:
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqP4liutJFs
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhXx__AMzTo

1. 
   nj_homeowner | Apr 24, 2019 08:25pm | #2

   Thank you Malcolm for the thoughts and these videos. It looks so easy to do right, and the materials are not expensive. I cannot believe any builder would omit these steps.

   I will add a photo here showing some WRB and trim detail as installed.

   All our windows have an Azek drip cap at the top, and the siding is Hardie Plank, which I assume will perform better over time than wood.

   But I guess eventually water will get behind it, and then just as you say, these details will matter.

   The trim and siding work is about 80% done, so redoing all of it will cost even more than doing it the first time. It will also delay our project of course.

   Do you think it's fair to force the builder to redo? Would you do so?

1. 
   Patrick_OSullivan | Apr 24, 2019 11:08pm | #4

   > Do you think it's fair to force the builder to redo? Would you do so?

   "Forcing" someone to do something they're required to do by code and/or a manufacturer's install guidelines (and therefore code) is certainly not unfair. I love Mike Guertin's writing on these topics (see https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2011/09/30/2012-irc-codifies-window-and-door-pan-flashings) because he does it all: from teaching, to self-performing, to admitting when he's in over his depth (go take a class with him). It goes to show you that these things are not something we should feel bad about asking our contractors to do. They are reasonable and fair requests for the money we pay.

   So, would I push him to re-do? Yes. Would I feel bad for doing so? Yes. Would I get over that knowing the IRC, NJ building subcode, and manufacturer's installation instructions were originally ignored? Also yes.

   If you let substandard work go unfixed, *you* will regret it. Not anyone else.

1. 
   hughw | Apr 25, 2019 10:59am | #10

   Absolutely agree....chances are in his heart of hearts, the builder probably knows he f---ked up. He won't be happy about being forced to correct, but unless he's really an unscrupulous person, he's going to comply....perhaps, you could offer to pay something (25%, 33%, of the cost) to indicate that you realize it's not easy for him and that you're doing this because it's important. At the end of the day, the builder will have learned an important lesson and won't make the same mistake again.

2. Expert Member
   MALCOLM TAYLOR | Apr 24, 2019 08:39pm | #3

   Brian,

   This is one of those "if you were a lifeguard at the beach and could only rescue one of your friends, which one would you choose" situations. I'm very sorry you have been put in a situation to make the call. I can't say which way I'd go.

3. GBA Editor
   Martin Holladay | Apr 25, 2019 06:54am | #5

   Brian,
   Isn't this your third Q&A thread on the same issue?

   In one of your previous two threads, I think that Peter Yost urged you to perform a water-entry test with a garden hose on every single window. You'll need a ladder -- and it would be an even better test if you could depressurize the house with a blower door at the same time. Have you done that yet?

1. 
   nj_homeowner | Apr 25, 2019 08:14am | #6

   Hi Martin -

   I did see Peter's post, which I do appreciate, and I watched the video he linked. I think it's an interesting idea.

   My concern is whether such a test is conclusive because of how the house will change over time. And that is why I posted this question in addition to the others.

   If we spray it and there's no leak now, but the house and its parts expand and contract for the next 15 years, and glues degrade, will it still be leak-free? Or will we then see the difference between our install and what was prescribed?

   If we spray it and there is no leak, the builder might feel vindicated. It might appear unnecessary to redo everything. Hence the questions about what will happen to our assembly over time.

   Thanks to all of the generous advice on this forum, I have some understanding of how a house should be constructed, how it should work. Understanding the magnitude of the mistakes on our house, and the likelihood of future problems, is much harder.

   Thank you Martin and everyone else.

1. Expert Member
   BILL WICHERS | Apr 25, 2019 08:38am | #7

   If you’re builder is giving you trouble when you ask that he follow the manufacturer’s installation instructions, you might try asking the inspector. Inspectors check to be sure things meet code, but they also generally want all devices/equipment/etc installed per plans and instructions. I have even had inspectors tell me “I’m just going to make sure it’s installed according to the manufacturers instructions” before.

   Bill

4. 
   Robert Opaluch | Apr 25, 2019 09:39am | #8

   You appear to me to want to do something but also appear to be too intimidated by the builder or something like that. Consider speaking to three real estate attorneys, and pick the one you like best to represent you in discussions with the builder, or write up something for you to give to your builder. You may be able to reach a settlement with the builder to be reimbursed for the builder refusing to follow manufacturer's instructions or typical construction best practices, or violating some part of your contract with the builder. Maybe you or the builder could pay for a warrantee that would include any future water damage? The attorneys may have some ideas on how to proceed with the builder.

1. 
   nj_homeowner | Apr 25, 2019 10:58am | #9

   Thank you for the thoughts.

   I do not feel intimidated, but very aware of the challenges he and I will both face if we decide to do this. I want to be sure this is necessary before putting everyone through it.

   If I am going to ask the builder to step up and do the right thing, I must be sure that I am also doing the right thing.

   Hopefully no lawyers will be needed ever.

5. 
   walta100 | Apr 25, 2019 11:08am | #11

   Before you lawyer up or burn your bridges consider the possibility that most places are in a building boom and they may take the next payment and walk off your job.

   When I look out my window and see a house where the contractor left for one reason or another, that house is still under construction after 2 years and 4 months.

   Walta

1. 
   nj_homeowner | Apr 25, 2019 11:13am | #12

   I agree and wish to avoid such an outcome.

6. 
   Colin63 | Jun 30, 2019 11:35am | #13

   Tyvek deteriorates rapidly after 20 years . It is water repellent but not waterproof. Window s doors any transition from plumb to not needs to be water tight before house wrap gets installed, vynil siding is a decoration. It is in no way preventing water infiltration to the plywood