Sourcing Spray Foam Insulation Kits
I’m considering getting a spray foam insulation kit to finish sealing my rim joist insulation and looking for a reputable supplier.
I have installed 3 1/2″ polyiso blocking to the rim joist between the floor joists and would like to put a layer of foam over the blocking to seal the blocking in and deal with any penetrations thru the rim joist and bottom plate leading to the first floor. I’m also planning to use some foam to seal in some foam blocking that is above my top plate on the wall in a few locations, especially where I will have a cathedral ceiling. The total amount of material I will need is approximately 300 board feet if I hit a nominal 1″ thickness of foam.
What are good brands to look at for this application.
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Replies
I actually prefer canned foam for sealing in foam blocks in rim joist areas. I like to use Loctite's Titefoam product here, since it's higher density and I've had better results with it, although it's about twice the cost of Greatstuff. For things like wire holes in top plates I use regular Greatstuff in my foam gun.
If you want to go with one of the two part sprayfoam kits, I've used the Dow Frothpaks a number of times with good results. The key to a good application with those is to warm the tanks up well before using them. On commerical projects, I like to put the tanks on top of an electrical transformer overnight, but on residential jobs I have put them in a bathroom with a space heater running. You want to get the tanks up to around 80-90F or so, and evenly warm which takes a few hours to do. If you don't warm the tanks up before use, you'll get much less than advertised coverage with the foam.
Start out with a test blast into a bag at first so that the mix stabilizes. The two hoses don't alway fill at the same rate, and you don't want the first blast of goo going into your final project areas. You'll know pretty quick when the mix is stable since you'll start seeing foam expansion and even coloration. It only takes a a few seconds after things start coming out of the spray gun for things to stabilize.
Once you start spraying your project, GO GO GO! DO NOT STOP! If you wait more than a few seconds, the spray gun starts to clog and you'll have to replace the tip. Ideally you want to stage your entire project, lock all of the foam blocks in with scrap wire, so that you can spray pretty much continuously from start to finish once you've started. You MUST avoid any stops between stages, if you want to avoid issues and tip swaps.
BTW, plan to get a bigger kit than you think you need. Almost no one ever gets exactly what they thought they would out of one of these kits. I'd plan for 20% extra material to be safe.
Bill
Good advice from Bill.
Some things I found helpful:
The big kits are heavy. Foam is typically 2 lbs per cubic foot, a 600 board foot kit is 50 cubic feet or 100 lbs of foam -- plus the weight of the containers. You want to get a cart or a wagon or something to move them around. Strap them into the cart, if one falls over while you're spraying it can throw off the mix and it's hard to recover. If you're doing rim joists the cart also makes a good place to stand.
I found the key to spraying in one continuous pass was to rehearse. Put the cans in the cart and walk through the route you're going to take with the spray wand in one hand. Practice how you're going to turn corners and change directions. Rehearse until you can do it without stopping.
Wear PPE. You don't want foam on your skin, in your eyes, mouth, ears or lungs. The stuff is nasty.
+1 for PPE!!! I use a full tyvek suit with hoodie and booties, and I where a mask and respirator too, with the proper cartridges. You can build up an allergic reaction over time to some of the things in the spray foam materials, so it's best to just be careful from the start.
Glue has nothing on spray foam. Spray foam sticks like crazy to everything in touches. Make sure whatever it can touch on you is something you can throw in the trash and not worry about. Disposable Tyvek suits are great for this. I recommend getting a size too big of a suit to, so that you can squat and contort in weird positions while working with less chance of tearing the suit. Wear gloves too, ideally heavier rubber or latex disposable gloves. You don't want to have to scrape spray foam off of your skin.
BTW, don't have any nice tools around in areas where foam mist can get on them. You'll never get it all off. The same goes for extension cords. Ask me how I know ;-)
Bill
Yeah don't think you can get by without the tyvek suit. I figured I'd wear junk shoes without booties the first time. They are a nice foam it green color now :). And wear the hood, esp if you have hair left :D
It sucks to wear in the 80f spray temp they state but you gotta.
Keep some windows open if you can. The stuff is nasty and I can't imagine the vapor canister half mask is good enough without some ventilation.
Make sure the tank and wall temps are what they say. Mix the tanks every so often as well. If you don't do all 3 you'll end up with 1 partially full tank, not as much coverage, and have to dispose of it.
I'm so glad you asked this, Andy. Just yesterday I asked Fernando Pages Ruiz to write about spray foam kits for the Product Guide department. He will look at what’s available, what’s right for a given project, and what to know before using one for the first time. That said, I've heard good things about Dow Frothpaks too.
They were a bit pricier than the others but I had good luck with the 2 Foam it Green Kits I used. This time I ordered a Froth-Pak from Awarehousefull. Came in great condition on a FedEx van. I'll be using it the week of 7/11 if you want an update on it. Home Depot sells the 200 and 600 board feet kits around me as well. They were out of stock at the time but just saw them in store last week.
Also I tried on of these kits a month ago on some ducts.
https://www.amazon.com/Vega-Bond-Insulation-Cleaner-SF012/dp/B09HV91S9Z
Worked ok. It doesn't spray real even like the big kits do. You have to keep the can close to upright like the great stuff spray foam gun. So you gotta judge if your gonna get a good angle. Quantity wise it may work well in your situation. They sell 12 pack refill kits of the foam a bit cheaper.
Note that these kits all use high-global warming potential blowing agents. If you go with Bill's suggestion of single-part small cans plus boards, you can completely avoid that problem (unless you use XPS for the foam, rather than one of the many low GWP alternatives, such as EPS, GPS, polyiso or the new low GWP XPS products such as NGX).
Or you can go with a professional service in which case you have professionals taking care of all the challenges that Bill outlined, so you are less likely to get a failure to cure, and you have the option of using open-cell or using the lower-global-warming-impact HFO-based closed cell foam, either of which avoids the unnecessary impact you get with the DIY kit.
Open cell spray foam is riskier than closed cell in typical rim joist applications. If you want a little bit of interior side drying ability, use canned foam to foam in blocks or I faced EPS. This is what I did in my own home, since I have impermeable foil faced polyiso on the exterior of the rim joist.
Bill
I have a small space that wont allow me to achieve the R value I want without using spray foam. But it gets complicated because its roof work and I cant complete the project in one day alone so I considered a DIY kit.. But after watching this video called "Spray foam insulation nightmare: What can happen if it's not installed correctly" I'm reluctant to even hire a professional, let alone buy a DIY kit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hh5MYv7lWc
Problems with installations are only a very small percentage of total installations. Most installations go just fine. What you want is an experienced crew. I've used a number of FrothPak kits myself (15-20+ probably), and aside from a little dribble at the very beginning of the job, they've all been fine. That's why you want to start spraying into a trash bag or cardboard box and not your final location, get things running right before you start spraying the final application area.
The majority of problems are due to a poor mix at install time, which tends to be due to an inexperienced crew. The next problem is installing spray foam too far outside of the acceptable temperature range, which usually results in poor adhesion and not problems with the spray foam itself.
I would not base my decision to use a product based on a single video. If spray foam is all that will work for your application, use it. What you don't want to do is use spray foam in places where it doesn't really gain you anything, such as doing an entire wall with it. Try to use spray foam only in those areas where it's unique properties are a benefit, which generally means unvented roof assemblies, irregular foundation walls (cut stone, etc.), and sometimes rim joist areas. Other materials are usually better for "normal" insulation projects such as stud walls and attic floors.
Bill
Bill, I would practice more restraint on your advice. Really. Not everyone has your experience and if the person you are giving advice to overlooks one small, but necessary item, your advice to do their own 2-part spray foam insulation may cause them to lose their home. If not Mike, then someone else who reads and follows your advice to him.
I'm saying this as a person who has observed you over the years. I usually don't say anything, but you really are "potentially" putting this person's house at risk. You should take more care with your responsibility as an expert advisor. Your advice is not infallible.
It's actually pretty hard to mess up with the small kits. You're actually probably more likely to have a problem with a professional installer since their rigs allow for more "adjusting". The kits are pretty much "turn both tanks on all the way, point the guy and spray". Unless you manage to cut or kink one of the hoses, you're chances of having a disaster are pretty small. The usual complaint with the kits is that they don't produce the advertized amount of foam, so people end up running out before they complete their project. In my experience, the biggest cause of running short (aside from spraying a thicker layer than you thought you did) is the tanks being too cold.
The professional installers can adjust temperature, flow, and some other things that aren't posssible with the small kits. If the crew gets that wrong, then you can mess up the mix and that's where the "disaster installs" come from -- improperly cured foam. All of the major problems I'm aware of that have been posted about here on GBA, have been with professional installations. The best way to avoid those problems is with an experienced crew.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do think the risk of spray foam is overblown. It is true that it is not zero risk, but it's pretty close in practice. Remember that people are far more likely to complain loudly about a problem than they are to talk about their proper installation. This, over time, leads to an inflated sense of the likelihood of problems occuring during installation, and I think it's important to point that out. In my own experience, just as an example, I have been involved with hundreds of commerical spray foam installations, since it's about the only good way to insulate large water tanks (which comes up a lot with my work surprisingly enough). I have never seen a problem, but I've always used experienced crews, usually one particular vendor that I like to use. In my own experience, that means 0% failure rate, but since I am aware of reports of problems by others, I do point out that it's important to pick an experienced crew, and I have never claimed that there is zero risk, only that the risk is lower than some seem to think.
I do think it's worth pointing out that spray foam is not a panacea of insulation as some seem to think, either, which is why I often advise against it's use. I advise against it's use based on technical merits though, not so much risk of the installation. In my years on the GBA forums, I've probably recommended against the use of spray foam many more times than I've recommended it be used. Only using the product where it's really needed or has some real advantage does minimize the chances of a problem over one of those "use spray foam everywhere because it's better!" type of marketing things.
A little more words there than I would have thought when I started writing, but I tried to explain my reasoning here. I think it's important to try to be objective. I really do think that saying my recommendation is potentially putting someones home at risk here is a little overboard, and I would never intentionally recommend something that would. The first part of my original post actually recommended against the use of one of the two-part spray foam kits afterall, and suggested an alternative method :-)
Bill
Thanks Bill.
Do you think the common coverage complaint about DIY kits is because the spray foam is not expanding/inflating/curing 100%? And can that be caused by the building's temperature and reduce the R value per inch? And considering spray foam contractors need to keep busy, could be one of the aspects that are hard to control and prevent the foam from curing 100%?
And if I were to buy and use a DIY kit, what is the procedure and how expensive and time consuming is starting up and shutting down if I cannot complete the application in one day? I understand the containers need to be warmed overnight. I'm guessing I would need to start and stop at least four times before the roof project is complete due to the fact I have no attic access..
For me, the hesitancy I have about using or recommending spray foam regarding failed mixing or curing is not because the problems are frequent. They seem to be extremely rare. The reason I am still hesitant is that as far as I can tell, there is no good solution and no way to hold the installer responsible when there is a failure. That's potentially a financial disaster and a headache, literally and figuratively. If it's rare, I should be able to buy a $100 spray foam failure insurance policy that would buy me a new house if that happened, but I don't know where to buy one.
We agree that there are often other reasons to prefer different insulation types.
Every time you stop long enough to need to close the valves on the cannisters, you'll need a new hose/gun kit. The last time I checked (which was a while ago, so it's probably more now), the hose/gun kits were around $60-70 or so. Note that that's different from the tips, which snap onto the gun. The tips need to be replaced every time you stop for more than maybe 10 seconds or so. The hose/gun kit needs to be replaced if you're going to stop for overnight. I would not trust the hose/gun kit overnight with the valves on the canisters open. I have always made a point to use the entire kit in one day.
Note that while I did say that it's hard to have a problem with incomplete curing with spray foam from the kits, it is not impossible, and long-term stop/start cycles are probably the next most likely way to have problems after breaking or kinking a hose during install time. That is why I recommend not leaving the hoses pressurized for extended periods of time (like overnight), and I've always avoided doing that on any project I've used one of these kits on. While the likelihood of a problem is pretty low if you use the kit properly, the problems Eric and others have mentioned are NOT impossible, so it's worth being careful to avoid doing anything that may increase the chances of your having a problem.
I think, and this is all educated guesses on my part, that the most common cause of not getting advertised coverage on the larger kits is that people spray thicker layers than they thought they did. If you spray 1.5" thick and 12" long for example, every foot is 1-1/2 board feet, not one board foot, so you'd see 50" less coverage, albeit with a 50% thicker layer. It's tricky to gauge by eyeball how thick the finished foam layer is after expansion, and while you're spraying it's even more difficult to gauge how much it will expand, especially if you're inexperienced with the kits. Expect to get less coverage than the kit claims, and expect your foam application to be less than ideal, especially as you're first getting started and you're learning how it works.
I think the most likely cause of problems with the smaller kits, especially the tiny 12 board foot kit, is the cans getting too cold during application. I've seen recommendations to put the cans inverted in a bucket of warm water during use, which is probably a good idea to help keep the warm. The cans get cold as you use them, just like a BBQ propank tank gets cold as you run the grill.
I don't really know how much R value may be affected by less than ideal installations. My guess is it isn't too much of an issue unless you have an extremely poor installation. The temperature of the surface you're spraying on is important, and you usually want no less than 50F, and I'd say 70F or so is probably ideal. A little warmer is better than a little colder, within reason. My installations have all been done in the 70-85F range.
Regarding the contractors, I would like to think they don't rush the jobs to cut costs, but that might sometimes happen. I think more likely is that they didn't get the mix right and didn't have the experience to see the problem as they went. The crew I usually use adjusts periodically throughout the job, especially the temperature of the foam compounds, to keep things right as they go. They have the experience to know from looking at the expanding foam to know if they need to make any adjustments.
Note that there are two kinds of sprayfoam curing problems. Depending on what the problem with the ratio is, one problem is the foam cures too crumbly, and lacks strength. This means you have underperforming insulation, but at least it's not usually a smelly mess than you can't avoid cleaning up. The other way is the "bad way", and results in the foam staying gooey -- permanently. That's the problem the some fear enough to stay away from spray foam completely. There is no solution to that problem aside from removing the gooey mess and starting over from scratch. Since spray foam is VERY sticky, it is VERY difficult to completely remove that gooey mess. I have never had that happen on one of my jobs, and I've never heard of it happening with one of the DIY kits, but it certainly HAS happened with commercial jobs before. A kit could potentially get messed up and do that if you kinked one of the hoses or had a one tank stop suppling material. That's why you need to watch things as you go, and you need to be careful leaving the kit unattended. It wouldn't hurt to lay down a poly drop cloth under the kit as some extra insurance, and use a heavy weight one that won't tear as you move the tanks.
BTW, don't put the tanks on an elevated platform during use. Keep them on the floor as much as possible so that they can't fall and damage the hoses. You do NOT want to damage the hoses since that will let the raw compounds out, and that's where problems will come from.
Charlie: if your contractor is insured, and you want to be sure that they are, request that they provide you with a copy of their accord form prior to start of work and ask them to list you as "additionally insured" on the form. This means you can deal with their insurer directly if there is a problem, negating the need to chase down your contractor if something goes wrong. You can also ask for a performance bond, but now you're getting into extra cost complexities that most contractors won't want to deal with on a small job. Getting named as additionally insured should cost the contractor little or nothing, so that's much less of an issue and it's something I always require on my jobs from my subcontractors.
Bill
" I really do think that saying my recommendation is potentially putting someone's home at risk here is a little overboard, and I would never intentionally recommend something that would."
No one, especially me, ever said you would "intentionally" put someone's home at risk. That never ever entered my mind. I can't tell you how many times as I was learning to do something in life, (I'm almost 70), that I thought I knew everything needed to get the outcome I wanted. Usually what happens is that a person, any person, thinks they have controlled for all factors that will be determining the final outcome. It is only after you have screwed up severely that you find out that you didn't control for everything.
I think an individual's over-confidence and an exaggerated estimation of what they know is dangerous. How dangerous depends on what you are doing. If you are an adolescent young male just learning to drive it behooves that person to understand what he "doesn't" know. I think your advice on using 2-part spray foam instills overconfidence in it.
Just my opinion….
GBA should not be recommending site applied closed cell spray foam, due to some combination of global warming potential, potential health risks during installation, potential long-term health risks when not installed well, high cost of installation, low but possible risk of the extremely high costs of removal, availability of less risky and less costly alternatives, and systematic overuse when not really the best choice.
Or if GBA doesn’t want to take a stand on global warming, risky choices, or occasional consumer ripoffs or disasters, at least post a warning of potential risks when closed cell spray foam gets recommended or presented as a case study.
Look at this from a risk-reward perspective. What's the risk and costs (not just benefits), like if you have to remove the spray foam? In some cases, you could use factory produced polyiso that has approximately the same R-value per inch without the potentially serious health or possible removal risks. You can use blown cellulose/fiberglass to fill oddly shaped areas…. GBA could produce a table that lists reasonable alternatives, or specific instances when only closed cell spray foam clearly is the best solution. And note the costs of removal or recyclability for a lifespan perspective not just installation.
People can do stupid things. We all know examples of people not wearing masks when recommended, engaging in dangerous behaviors despite warnings, and not realizing the risks of choices they make until disaster strikes (myself included). Maybe recommending site applied closed cell spray foam with a list of warnings and recommendations isn’t good enough. Overlook one detail and bad things result. Might be too risky recommending site applied closed cell spray foam on a site that consumers use as a guide for making choices.
GBA should be posting a standard warning about potential negative effects when it is recommended by someone. Probably none of us are medical experts so we can't say much about the potential health effects, other than manufacturers and installers note that poisonous gases are produced, requiring some combination of venting, respiration equipment. And notes serious health effects will result if installers or others in the treated area don't heed these warnings. An article on this medical/IAQ topic would be helpful for this discussion or debate.
Also I believe Zephyr is one of the most valuable contributors on GBA. His opinions on this topic seem reasonable and his discussion is comprehensive. But very few have his depth and breadth of knowledge and experience. What works for him may not work for us less experienced practitioners and consumers.
Agree with risk-reward approach and Bill/Zephyr being a valuable contributor. After a risk-reward balance (size of job, alternatives, access, air sealing, insects, etc.), I did a Froth-Pak 120 sq ft using a 3M mask with the appropriate cartridges. I watched videos and practiced a bit on the motion and then did the job in one go without having to replace a nozzle. Shooting into a bag at the start is good advice, along with proper temperature of tanks, because uncured foam (a bit of spray at the end of a tank) is gooey. Stop when you think one of the tanks is empty. Fans/ventilation and lighting planned in advance. Best to have a complete plan for moving and easy access to spare nozzles and garbage bag (in 5 gallon drum or plastic tub) at hand. All went as planned.
FWIW, from Froth-Pak/Du Pont: "The newly enhanced, innovative line of spray foam solutions deliver a global warming potential (GWP) reduction of more than 99 percent as compared to current formulations. Froth-Pak™ contains no ozone-depleting chemicals or HFCs while elevating the performance attributes professional contractors expect from the market-leading, low-pressure spray foam brand. "
In organic chem lab as an undergrad, they told us "you are working with carcinogens", be careful. That wakes you up pretty fast, it's part of the profession - but manageable.
Just to clarify a bit, no one actually recommended spray foam here. The OP asked about it. My very first sentence or two actually recommended using canned foam instead (which is very different from two part spray foam and doesn't have the potential for a bad installation). There was no discussion saying anything like "don't do that, use spray foam instead".
I absolutely agree that spray foam is over-specced. Many builders offer it as a performance upgrade, with an associated increase in cost. I think that's often a bad way to go. I think of spray foam as a niche product with three main applicaitons:
1- unvented roof assemblies. Spray foam is the only fully adhered insulating material available as far as I know, which makes it the safest over the long term in these assemblies. It's also easier to install properly to avoid potential moisture problems compared with some of the fancier methods of building these assemblies that are sometimes proposed. The risk of moisture problems is much more than the risk of a bad spray foam install in my opionion.
2- irregular foundation walls, by which I mean cut stone and similar materials. Spray foam can conform to these walls and avoid voids. Panel type insulation can't do that, and batts have moisture problems in basements as we're all aware.
3- sealing up goofy shaped spaces like the rim joist area. Sometimes spray foam offers so much labor savings it's really the best option. This type of thing also tends to use relatively small amounts of spray foam (compared to doing an entire wall, for example), so there is less of a "it's not so green" concern.
Those are the three areas I consider spray foam to be either the best option, or at least reasonable to consider. I do not recommend it in walls or attic floors/ceilings, since the benefits are wasted (R per inch), and the air sealing work can be done effectively in other ways (canned foam and caulk). Very ocassionally in a retrofit project spray foam may make sense, but for the vast majority of projects there are better options for these areas. I would never recommend spray foam in those areas on a new build -- I much prefer mineral wool and loose fill cellulose here.
The main reason that I tend to add to discussions warning about major problems with spray foam installations is that I don't want people to get an impression of excessive levels of risk. This is similar (and this is just illustrative) to the "flying is dangerous because of the risks of a plane crash", but the reality statistically is that the drive to the airport is more dangerous than the flight. The problem is that the plane crashes tend to be so bad that people overestimate the risk of flying. Spray foam DOES have a risk, but it IS pretty low. I don't think people should be afraid of the product, especially the kits, but it is worth being aware of what could happen, and taking appropriate precautions. PPE -- Personal Protective Equipment -- IS VITAL here, especially to avoid contact since it's hard to clean off of your skin. A respirator and ventilation is also important. Once the material has cured though, it's pretty stable and safe.
Interesting that Dow is coming out with a more green version of spray foam. I'll have to look into that. BTW, the place I tend to use these froth paks is to seal the top of walls below corrugated metal roof decks in commercial buildings. That's an irregular space, and the spray foam kits work pretty well here.
Also, I appreciate the comments valuing my contributions here. Contributing to these forums is one way I like to give back to the community. When I was starting out some decades ago, it was very much more difficult to learn about this stuff, so I like that I can help others learn now. I also think we all gain from different people's experiences, even when there is conflicting information and opinions, since we can hopefully arrive at the best "all around" methods for any given situation. Everyone here tends to be professional and courteous, which allows for informative discussions where we can all learn.
The other way I like to give back is to participate in STEM outreach for high schools, especially 11 and 12 grade students considering technical fields. In this area, I represent the telecommunications industry, and I offer students oppurtunities to visit functioning datacenters and telecom switching sites where they can see operating systems, including fiber optic communications equipment, that is usually hidden from view. I like to schedule these groups near the end of the workday so that we don't have to have a hard cutoff time, so that discussions can continue until all the student's have asked all their questions. I like to do these as a sort of open Q and A forum, and I guide the students a bit since they often don't know what they might want to ask. Electrical/power system and enviornmental controls come up, as does efficiency. It's a lot of fun and I love doing it and highly recommend to any of the other professional members of the GBA community to try to see if there is a fit for their own skillset in local STEM programs. Give the students some opportunity to see high performance building techniques, maybe help turn some future architects and engineers on to high performance building. It's lots of fun, and an excellent way to help improve our industry going forward.
Bill
"Just to clarify a bit, no one actually recommended spray foam here. "
Kind of funny that we can have a vigorous (and respectful) debate about it even though none of us recommend it!
Also, thanks for the tip about insurance, and thanks for your work with kids. One of the nice things about the building performance industry is that there are so many different ways for people to slot into it, anywhere from hands-on work in the trades to academic research and lots in between.
We also have people that make the techical details more approachable. Look at Joe Lstiburek's friendly and sometimes slightly goofy writing style to see what I mean. Allison Bailes is another.
A lot of things that can make a big difference aren't difficult or expensive, but they're clever -- and people don't always think of things they could try. The more the industry in general knows, the better off we all are. The goal is more efficient buildings and systems, and I do think all the contributors here help move things towards that goal.
Bill
I just used my first DOW froth pack GWP kit. I didn't really notice a difference. Same smaller amount left in one tank that I always end up with. I swear the attic smelled less stinky when I took my respirator off though. So that was nice.
Bob
I have generally shared your feeling about spray foam. However, I have been reading the new SDS sheets on Huntsman Heatlok HFO PRO, which has a Greenguard Gold certification as well as a GWP potential of 1. I have never specified spray foam, but am trying not to be stuck in my ways and learn about product development.
Taking a renovation I am currently working on as an example... I am currently designing an existing attic remodel, with 2x4 walls and 2x6 ceiling (horiz board sheathing). Budget is not there for exterior insulation. So 2 insulation contractors come and take a look. One proposes cut/cobble polyiso with air sealing via seam caulking. Other insulator is a major foam installer in the area, but can also do blown in-etc.
I feel there are major risks of cut cobble given the complex geometry of an existing attic (dormers, angles, existing penetrations, etc). These could lead to air infiltration and longer term mold/moisture problems).
Cut/cobble insulator scared the client regarding spray foam. Spray foam installer won't even give a blow-in quote saying it is a disservice to the client. So it not easy in this instance to avoid spray foam.
Are your opinions of spray foam modulated by new information and new foam formulations?
Thanks!
Ethan
As noted by Zephyr7 above, in any conversation about risk, it seems that it is important to discuss relative risk, and also relative benefit. Of course, if the specific risk is intolerable, then relative risk need not be discussed. But given that all insulation installations are subject to installer error, we must compare them before deeming one riskier than the other.
So, specifically addressing the insulation question, it is also important to discuss existing conditions, code compliance - as these are often what push people into the spray foam camp, and long term risk of various insulation options. Then we must look at relative risks rather than focusing on the risk of a specific method.
First of all, I am curious about the risks of spray foam alternatives. First of all, in most cathedral ceiling situations, there is a risk of vapor infiltration leading to sheathing rotting. For one, I see a risk of cut/cobble insulation installations on existing irregular wall/cathedral ceilings allowing air infiltration and long term
What to do about substandard batt installations on cathedral ceilings - as these may be recommended by contractors even if they are not technically code compliant?
And about installer error? In my geographic area, finding an insulation installer willing to do cut/cobble is no small task. So clients are left in a DIY situation, or a GC who says he can do it - with no experience in air sealing or other insulation concepts will a rotting moldy wall/ceiling cavity remain? What is the risk of a substandard cut/cobble installation or an underinsulated drafty batt install pulled straight from the 1980s?
What other good option then is there to low-GWP spray foam for attic/insulation retrofits? Are the recommendations here at GBA holdovers from another era?
Even I am surprised that HEATLOK HFO is Greenguard Gold Certified- Low VOC and that its Honeywell HFO Liquid Blowing Agent technology has a GWP of 1.
What am I missing in terms of risk here?