Wet OSB – how much water can it take?
paco1950
| Posted in General Questions on
We are two weeks from having trusses and roof on our new house. The rains are killing us. We painted the subfloors before the rains and have been sucking water after each storm. We are dreading putting the hardwood floors down (someday). How much damage can happen due to this rain, glad it’s helping the drought, but it’s definitely stressing us out!
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Replies
Colleen,
Once the house is dried in, and the OSB has dried out, use a belt sander to take down the swollen edges of the OSB.
If the OSB swelling is too serious -- more than your belt sander can fix -- install a layer of tongue-and-groove plywood over the ruined OSB.
And next time, specify Advantech.
It may also be wise to bring in a company like Service Master or ServPro to dry the building out after the rain stops. Even though I agree with Martin about Advantech for water resistance during construction, next time specify plywood for your health. Just my opinion ;)
Richard, how about posting a Richard Beyer list of what to build with and then a list of what to avoid.
And then list a wall and cathedral assembly you favor along with it's R values and what ACH you favor and, what about ventilation, foundations, underslab materials etc.
A safe Richard Beyer spec. I'm interested as a user of Advantech and plywood and not with pleasure OSB, and XPS though trying to feel better about EPS as i need something under slabs, mini splits I like, are they on the Richard good or bad list?
Start a question Richard with your specs of a safe home and what to avoid.
You probably don't need to worry at all. If there areas of ponding on the floor, drill a few holes to let the water drain through. Once the house is closed in, start running a rented dehumidifier and perhaps some heat (not salamander heaters) to start drying all of the materials. Continue doing that and monitoring the humidity in the house with an accurate instrument until the house is done or the levels are stable without the dehu. Bear in mind that drywall, paint, tile, and other trades add a lot of water, and so do the sweating, breathing installers.
You could get a formal answer to your question about "how much water" by contacting the manufacturer of the OSB and talking to a tech person. They have folks in the office for that purpose, waiting for you to call them.
Lol, nice answer AJ, your all over the place.
Colleen, the first place to specify is in your question, how about the brand of OSB and type? Georgia Pacific? Advantech?
Not sure how anyone can advise without knowing some minimum details about the concern?
See 4 attachments - Georgia Pacific (GP) for example has been designed to allow for environmental design loads during construction and is rated as "Class 1"....it is not rated for prolonged exposure. It has a "protective edge" follow their cutting instructions.
Advantech AT) is rated and warranted to 500 days, but if you paint the product or alter it in any way the warranty is void. GP is the same. The reason for this is the product(eg: paint) can break down the protective resigns-catalyst that provide the moisture protection. Sanding can do the same. See "secondary treatments" in the warranty.
Richard, neither product is harmful in the cured state....except for sanding and cutting dust.
AJ as usual you never have anything positive to say.
Terry Lee said; "neither product is harmful in the cured state....except for sanding and cutting dust."
I have never seen soaked or even mildly wet OSB which did not need seam sanding after it was dried out. OSB does emit chemical odors which are not harmful for some and is for others. To say neither product is harmful in it's cured state is not 100% truthful. As a matter of fact there's no medical data to support the statement if the resins used are MDI and if formaldehyde was used there is plenty of data to support the harmful affects. How many carpenters are known to have nasal surgery due to polyps?
Richard,
Good question. We'll start a poll. I worked as a carpenter for many years, and I have never had nasal surgery.
Richard, I ask you to expound upon your area of interest so as to share it with us all in one place. What is important to you is important to me too and others. I'm adding to GBA and this thread by my request.
You're a great person. I bet you're as tall and handsome and smart as any.
Post the list please. We all need your knowledge shared.
Martin, add me to the no surgery list. Have worn out a dozen saws.
AJ Wrote: I bet you're as tall and handsome and smart as any" Handsome? S-Harassment violation , call human resources. :) I'll leave that one alone, anyone else said that Martin have a cow, literally. The buddy system ;) ....How much per day you make out here soliciting yourself AJ? You seem to be exempt from all the site rules that others are called out on by Martin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea
Richard, "Urea Formaldehyde", urea type is organic practically non toxic. If I remember right an emitting less than 1% by volume. Both GP and AT I mentioned are not using MDI....look at the data sheets, for which urea-f can be used to make MDI but not here. You said "specify plywood for your health" the same urea formaldehyde is used in both companies as most as a laminate adhesive for both OSB and plywood. Again, look at the MSDS and data sheets.
I'd be interested in seeing a study of both GP and AT in their installations in a lab or field test (w/cladding's) , T&G, that caused builders in open air, or a homeowner a direct link health issue. I'm not interested in generalities about formaldehyde's, I'm interested in these two manufactures specific products that have been tested in their installations or jobsites. The are MANY formaldehyde types and compounds, lets be more specific and not assume they all pose health issues. These same urea-phenols are used in most of the new highly regulated aircraft for at least two decades I know of and have designed and manufactured. Lets not get your secret admirer AJ started on the Dreamliner for one. If we have a problem Houston, the world needs to know? If not I think it is fairly safe to assume the manufactures disclosures I posted are accurate, if not we see class actions law suits I am not aware of?
Richard and AJ, we just did this beer pex install at a watering hole bar-steak house in KS.....Might be a good place for two to meet, break the ice over formaldehyde brew :)
Please, don't feed the trolls...
http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/internet-troll-20110516-102141.jpg
Lol, these work great for a formaldehyde detox...Home depo check out isles...
A little knowledge for you guy's who find humor in this topic.... Read the median age statistic below.
Nasal Cavity and Paranasal Sinus Cancers from the American Cancer Society
"What are the key statistics about nasal cavity and paranasal sinus cancers?"
Cancers of the nasal cavity and paranasal sinuses are rare, with about 2,000 people
in the United States developing these cancers each year.
These tumors are more common with age, with about 4 out of 5 cases occurring in people
who are at least 55 years old. Men are more likely than women to get these cancers.
They occur much more often in certain areas of the world such as Japan and South Africa.
Most cancers of the nasal cavity and paranasal sinuses occur in the maxillary
sinuses or in the nasal cavity. They are less common in the ethmoid sinuses, and are rare in the
frontal and sphenoid sinuses.
Survival statistics for these cancers are discussed in the section “Survival rates for nasal cavity and paranasal sinus cancers, by stage.”
What are the risk factors for nasal cavity and paranasal sinus cancers?
A risk factor is anything that changes your chances of getting a disease like cancer.
Different cancers have different risk factors. For example, too much exposure
to sunlight is a risk factor for skin cancer, and smoking is a risk factor for many different kinds of
cancers. But risk factors don’t tell us everything. Having a risk factor, or even several, does not
mean that you will get the disease. Many people with risk factors never develop these
cancers, while people with these cancers may have few or no known risk factors.
"Most of these are exposures to inhaled substances in the workplace."
"Workplace exposures"
People who work in certain jobs are more likely to develop nasal cavity and paranasal
sinus cancer. The increased risk seems to be related to breathing in certain substances
while at work, such as:
•
Wood dusts from carpentry (such as furniture and cabinet builders), sawmills, and
other wood-related industries
•
Dusts from textiles (textile plants)
•
Leather dusts (shoemaking)
•
Flour (baking and flour milling)
•
Nickel and chromium dust
•
Mustard gas (a poison used in chemical warfare)
•
Radium (a radioactive element rarely used today)
These workplace exposures have less clear links to nasal and paranasal sinus cancer:
•
Glues
•
Formaldehyde
•
Organic solvents
http://www.cancer.org/acs/groups/cid/documents/webcontent/003123-pdf.pdf
Peter I appreciate your troll link. I'll find use for this in the future.
Apparently Martin and AJ are exempt from cancer. I'm disappointed you two find humor in this topic.
I personally know a few carpenters (none smokers) who have had nasal surgery. To them this topic is no laughing matter. To make matters worse you really only need long term exposure to wood dust to generate polyps and cancer of the nose. Funny now? Read the links provided below.
Terry you place to much trust in manufacturer's when it comes to bonded wood, but your highly concerned over plastic pipes and chemicals in your water?
If any of you had ever employed anyone on the books you would learn about chemicals fast when a former employee makes a claim down the road. This employee could also be a "sub-contractor" you payed as an independent to avoid the tax consequences....AJ or even Peter L? Read the IRS code if you find this funny.
A good friend of mine is a franchise holder of a major muffler shop. He employed a man 30 years ago for 45 days until the man quit for a better paying position somewhere else. 30 years later he is fighting an asbestos exposure claim against his company because this former employee is now sick. I know this is not formaldehyde, but asbestos was also classified as safe back then. Today formaldehyde is labeled as a known carcinogen when @ 5 years ago it was said to be safe. New Orleans FEMA trailers anyone?
It's a known fact workers are more susceptible to these hazards. It wasn't until after the FEMA trailers when consumer exposure took the lime-lite. Consumer risk is now being recognized due to air sealing homes and long term exposure to the household cocktail. Spray Foam Martin?
Now Hence... "GreenGuard Certification" and other programs. Keep minimizing the effect and you to will learn like my friends have. Unfortunately for one friend he has no way out but through his wallet. For builders with minimal assets your home may be at risk if and when that day comes.... AJ? Keep your policy updated.
See for yourself...
http://ehs.okstate.edu/training/OSHAFHYD.HTM
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3421471/
"Studies of people exposed to formaldehyde in the workplace have also found a possible link to cancer of the nasal sinuses."
http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/intheworkplace/formaldehyde
"United States environmental regulations, intended to protect human health, generally fail to address major sources of pollutants that endanger human health. These sources are surprisingly close to us and within our control, such as consumer products and building materials that we use within our homes, workplaces, schools, and other indoor environments. Even though these indoor sources account for nearly 90% of our pollutant exposure, they are virtually unregulated by existing laws."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019592550400071X
Terry,
I think some of your info may be outdated. In a previous OSB topic I performed a fast search and found this info below in relation to OSB manufacturing.....
"Fiberboard and particleboard lumber are built-up from wood particles bonded together by an adhesive, the adhesive being selected according to the intended use of and the properties desired for the lumber. Often times, the adhesive is combined with other additives to impart additional properties to the lumber. Common additives are fire retardants, insect repellants, moisture resistants, fungus resistants and color dyes. In some fiberboard and particleboard lumber products, wood particles have been combined with other cellulosic materials, such as vegetable fibers, pulp and the like. A significant advantage of fiberboard and particleboard lumber products is that they have many of the properties of plywood, but can be made from lower grade wood species and waste from other wood product production,
Commercial phenol–formaldehyde (PF), used as oriented strandboard face and core resins..
(P-MDI) Polymeric and (E-MDI) emulsion type Isocyanate Resins and Acetone (used to even out the resins during manufacture) are also used in High Performance OSB.
Richard, we were just having fun last night sorry if I offended you but common relax your going to have a heat attack stressing out over it. Coleen is already stressing out without adding a sea to her puddles. You should do some research on stress being a large killer, forget nasal, it kills!
Your info about GP and AT is outdated. I have talked to the Engineers in depth and look at their data sheets. They DO NOT use a solvent as a resign transport, they use small amounts of natural oils. I don't know where you have been hiding but the paint industry is not using toxic solvents these days either for transport, now over low voc. From what I read the oils do not provide as strong of a bond as solvents but they are lower in toxins other than the color oxides some can be toxic. Pressures from the EPA and a competitive market have driven these manufactures like many to go to a urea based and oils, get the toxins out. How would like it if you owned companies like these and people were making false accusations on the internet? That is trolling! If you disagree with the data sheets and design materials provide some proof they are toxic of the specific phenols-eura-oils of company you are referring to and leave all the other applications out of it. Stay on topic, OSB is NOT created equal and you cannot point them to generalities.
We can point all building materials to asbestos and lead based paint if we wanted to then we would have nothing. There are many you fail to mention that have not been linked to historical health issues like them. I've been working with natural building materials that are toxic oxides like lime simular to organic eura on the job site but not cured as far as we know. If you don't follow the manu MSDS then your asking for trouble, but that is off topic in this thread.
Terry,
First off, I'm not offended and do respect your opinions and the others here. I do view minimization of worker chemical exposure and consumer exposure where children reside as reckless.
However, I'm not sure what part of OSB you claim I'm mistaken by and making "Generalities"?
In my opinion, one of the most popular OSB products used is Advantech and Zip-System due to it's water resistance properties and strength through bad weather.
Read the MSDS's below and then tell us all OSB does do not contain toxics most of which are listed as hazardous by OSHA on page 2 along with the additional hazards throughout the remaining pages.
ADVANTECH
http://www.huberwood.com/assets/user/library/AdvanTech_MSDS_2013.pdf
ZIP-SYSTEM
http://www.huberwood.com/assets/user/library/ZIP_R-Sheathing_MSDS1.pdf
GP... "phenol, phenol resorcinol, melamine formaldehyde-based, or polyvinyl acetate"
http://www.buildgp.com/blue-ribbon-osb-sheathing
Terry please share with us where the toxins do not exist? Trolling? In all fairness we will never escape these chemicals and for some who worked in that manufacturing sector it becomes personal. In all reality OSB is soaked in these chemicals to bond all the wood fiber as one. Plywood becomes a better solution because there will be less chemical used by weight.
The real question is how many carpenters even read the MSDS or even understand what it means?
EPA? Who do you think the EPA really works for? Us? They certainly do not have jurisdiction inside of a private home. EPA covers anything you blow into the air or spill into water ways. OSHA has jurisdiction over worker and employer relations.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/12/19/16546/one-stop-science-shop-has-become-favorite-industry-and-texas
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/12/18/16532/texas-weakens-chemical-exposure-guidelines-opens-door-polluters
Benzene...
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/12/04/16320/benzene-and-worker-cancers-american-tragedy
Why is this on topic? Terry Lee maybe you can help carpenters understand what MDI/PMDI is constructed from and explain why there's no documented medical evidence yet on carpenters cutting through this chemical? What is emitted when you burn through a sheet of OSB containing these chemicals with a spent saw blade. It happens more often than not.
You guys should start your own thread and piss on each other there, instead of ruining this one.
I'm out of the debate...The answer is your probably fine if you used a low voc or water based paint, if a oil or solvent based it potentially could have ruined the OSB resigns and protective coating's. Not meaning to stress you out, I know how it is to make mistakes I make plenty and do always read the instructions. You could add a polyurathane roll on or less toxic more natural linseed oil that won't last as long. Good luck!
All right lets go down the AT MSDS in detail and take a look together......see attached.
Chem 1, 73-83%: We know wood dust can cause respiratory issues if inhaled...any wood, like alot of natural material mother nature provides that cause allergies and repository issues.
Chem 2, 1-10% : MDI, in the comments section it states: "Fully cured finished product does not contain free or active Polymeric Diphenylmethane Diisocyanate" as I stated, please provide a test or field study showing a direct link of 1-10% PDD that is not free or active in a OSB job site application or home?
Chem 3, 1-5%: Phenol w/formaldyde...please provide a test or field study showing a direct link related to health issues at these levels in this product...the product has been out long enough to collect health concerns.
Paraffin Wax, 0-2% same
Free Formaldehyde: less than .01% as I said, now here is your emitance risk that is even lower under a sub floor, in cladding, or a "sealed exterior environment"...OSHA limits are 2 ppm, have you read CFR 1910.1048? to show a health concern at 2 ppm? Is plywood less than this? Neither would be significant from a formaldehyde perspective and your initial concerns. I agree most installing this stuff do not look at the data sheets or MSDS, or no enough to not paint it or subject it acids or solvents that it can react to.....for the most part both are stable and non-reactive in normal levels of environmental conditions.
We can look at OSHA HCS 2012 too but I'm hear to tell you they make conservative warnings to protect themselves legally, and do not forget all these materials do not stand alone they are bonded together as an assembly may change the detail properties in certain environments like job sites with plenty of free flowing air. These warning are for the workers.
Yes you took it to a trolling level since none of this is addressing the OP's questions. If you want to talk about health related issues and OSB_plywood start your own Q&A or as AJ suggested blog list.
Boy every time I look at these sheets they are changing stuff.
Guy's I'm sorry this got off topic but I do believe it was started by AJ and then Terry challenging me. Some things (chemicals) should be recognized which are commonly over looked by most tradesmen.
We all need to pay attention to the reactive (manufacturing), "potentially" nonreactive (cured) and reactive stages of exposure (cutting, burnishing & sanding).
Terry failed the test! His focus is solely on nonreactive.
Carpenters are sawing, burnishing and sanding these products. This is where the real hazard comes to light. Where's the test results for this Terry? All of your examples are in a cured untouched manufactured form. I placed the msds sheets up because you stated; "They DO NOT use a solvent as a resign transport, they use small amounts of natural oils."
Maybe you spent to much time drinking the beer from that PEX tubing you feared so much? Either way I still respect you! ;) Before I leave this link alone we need to address one thing in particular...
Terry said; ""Fully cured finished product does not contain free or active Polymeric Diphenylmethane Diisocyanate" as I stated, please provide a test or field study showing a direct link of 1-10% PDD that is not free or active in a OSB job site application or home?"
A; NIOSH is currently investigating these claims. Contact them directly and ask.
As for addressing the OP's questions.. I already did that from the beginning and it ended up here with "tall and handsome and smart as any" ...
Have a Wonderful Holiday! ;)
As for addressing the OP's questions.. I already did that from the beginning and it ended up here with "tall and handsome and smart as any" ...
Now thats funny, I don't care who you are...Pretty boy! I'm beginning to think AJ is female I hope? You Richard spend more time researching this stuff than I and I respect that. I did agree the sawing and dust poses hazards I agree, you follow the MSDS wear a chem approved mask. Same with lime, same in the real world since there are a TON of allerigns floating around that have caused deaths outside the home.
OSB has been a hot topic here on GBA lately. I'd personally never use the crap, but it is interesting. Take note of the scrap wood content to keep resign cost down....73-83% and people think the world of Advantec. I can do better with wood chips, hemp, straw, and higher content lime or pozzolan binder, more natural, less toxic, more compression and bending resistance, more insulation, less cost.
Happy Holidays too :)
BTW right after we had that plumbing thread I seen those pex lines at one of our commercial jobs and was shocked to see them in beer. I think I got a formaldehyde brain...Kook! Koo!
"tall and handsome and smart as any" ... Recommends wearing a full body condom and OSHA approved mask when building with the materials specified here on GBA! From plastic plumbing, OSB, Spray Foam, Rigid Foam to Gorilla Glue you better protect your skin as well. The skin is a known point of entry for building product chemicals aside from your lungs. It's been fun Terry Lee! ;) There's my opinion for the afternoon.
"Changes in indoor pollutants since the 1950s"
Over the past half-century there have been major changes in building materials and consumer products used indoors. Composite-wood, synthetic carpets, polymeric flooring, foam cushioning, plastic items and scented cleaning agents have become ubiquitous. The same is true for mechanical and electrical appliances such as washer/dryers, TVs and computers. These materials and products emit an array of chemicals including solvents, unreacted monomers, and additives. The consequent changes in emission profiles for indoor pollutants have been accompanied by modifications in building operations. Residences and non-residences are less ventilated than they were decades ago. Air-conditioned buildings are more numerous, especially in certain parts of the world. Most of these recirculate a high fraction of their air. The personal habits of building occupants, including the fraction who smoke indoors, have also changed. Taken together, these changes have altered the kind and concentrations of chemicals that occupants are exposed to in their homes, workplaces and schools. Since the 1950s, levels of certain indoor pollutants (e.g., formaldehyde, aromatic and chlorinated solvents, chlorinated pesticides, PCBs) have increased and then decreased. Levels of other indoor pollutants have increased and remain high (e.g., phthalate esters, brominated flame-retardants, nonionic surfactants and their degradation products). Many of the chemicals presently found in indoor environments, as well as in the blood and urine of occupants, were not present 50 years ago. Given the public's exposure to such species, there would be exceptional value in monitoring networks that provided cross-sectional and longitudinal information regarding pollutants found in representative buildings.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1352231008009205
Happy Holidays to Everyone!
David Meiland has posted here for years and at Fine Homebuilding's Breaktime for years before that. He doesn't post nonsense and has certainly been a great help to me for the best part of a decade.
Interesting Richard....You are a great asset to this site with health related post. Keep up the good work...what we need is a poll to find accurate info on the internet of value....In the building industry VERY hard to find.
David Meiland wrote: You guys should start your own thread and piss on each other there, instead of ruining this one.
I search the entire thread and failed to find ANYTHING of value you posted other than this horse sh**!! The GBA Association and it's members honors you with the # 1 Troll award, Peter L takes #2, AJ Builder #3.
Sorry but there was PlENTY of technical content he could of chimed in to display this vast array of knowledge you find so valuable. Your opinion and experience does not change the content of his post on this thread which offers no solution to the op or value period!
David Meiland wrote: You guys should start your own thread and piss on each other there, instead of ruining this one.
"Piss on each other" wow!
Why because we are ONLY real contributors with any degree of valuable content?
Take your head out Malcolm. If he had ANYTHING else to offer fine with the joke, otherwise what an IDIOT!
I can go to Contractorstalk.com and find that crap all day long.
Sometimes the "buddy systems" don't work and fall flat on their ass!
So how about it David Meiland "how much water can OSB take"?????
Well, Terry, not a whole lot before it starts to swell at the edges, but quite a bit before it gets so bad that you have to replace it. I've seen a house or two that went unfinished and unprotected so long that the subfloors had to be removed and replaced by someone who came along to salvage the project. I doubt the OP is in that situation, though, and hopefully she knows that the majority of houses in this country are built with OSB and left out in the weather while they are being built, which can mean near-constant rain here in Washington if you are building in the rainy season.
Bottom line, the OP didn't really provide enough info to get a definitive response, which is why I suggested she call a tech rep at the company that made the material and ask them.
Maybe this is a periodic occurrence on all discussion boards and things will straighten themselves out, but right now this place is losing a lot of its usefulness because of a few problematic characters.
This site is improving....Thank you David for contributing your VERY limited experiences in from Washington.....Been there also many states in the US. Washington totally different than most states. We seen data on the OSB big fish that indicate changes in the design, so what you thought you knew before is null and void! The ratios of phenol, types of wax, edge sealers, oils, MDI, eura, changes constantly making your knowledge null and void!
Malcolm, be grateful some great people are out here to help with the complex nature of an ever changing industry.
DAVID MEILAND wrote: why I suggested she call a tech rep at the company that made the material and ask them.
This is bad advice, the "tech reps" are usually college kids that have no clue whats going on. The Senior Engineer is whom you want but you need to hire an Engineer that knows how to converse. Trust me I been a college grad that answers phones, and a senior engineer doing more important task.
Terry, it's good that we have an internationally recognized expert such as yourself, fully versed in the rapidly-evolving chemistry of OSB, to guide us through this incredibly challenging dilemma. I bow before your greatness. I'm sure the OP feels fully clear on how to proceed as a result of your magnificent wisdom.
Hopefully you have that quarter-round attached by now. That was a nail-biter!
Richard, I'm leaving from KS to San Deigo, CA Monday but I want to look closer at your post on the MSDS of GP vs AT (ZIP) .....and the ratios of chems.... I'll be back when I got time, got a house to get on the market before I leave...I would value your opinion on the chems....I wanted to get to the GP MSDS. We'll use this thread. GP had more eura last time I looked.
Very low binder in both cases, amazing! Makes no sense how AT is claiming more strength and moisture resistant than GP.
Wow! Lots of good information and things to research, many thanks for everyone's time. We will get it closed in and slowly dry things out, we know we are in for some sanding and grinding, but it will be worth it! We did use a low voc latex paint which has held up well. The window edges may give us more grief than the floors at this point. Thankfully we didn't use oil based sealers because of the toxins. Thanks again. Colleen
When you can not challenge the facts at hand try a personal attack or something else, most with any intellect can see right through it. Nice card to play David no need to continue you have no ideal in any climate zone what moisture content it can take, try start looking at the data sheet the max it can absorb before it becomes permeable. That has to be the same in WA as CA right?
At least me got more intellect out of you than "pissing on people" lol!
We did use a low voc latex paint which has held up well.
Good for you, your good to go :)
David, Malcolm. that last post of mine advice's Coleen that the paint she has applied to the OSB is acceptable..I failed to see a concern of either one of you throughout this thread with regard to chemical break down paint can cause to OSB. Please provide in detail why you agree or disagree that a "low voc" paint is acceptable per my acceptance of it or not?
I mean I could be wrong and I am sure you guys can explain exactly why chemically that is the case?
Malcolm,
Thanks for your feedback. I'm considering what to do about the problem.
Colleen, not all low voc paints do not pose a risk to OSB. Read the label, some iron oxides (color pigments) can cause a combustive reaction to the formaldyhdes in OSB which is the moisture protection.
Martin, please feel free to ban me for providing accurate info to GBA because it appears the only ones being "pissed on" as David puts it is him and Malcolm.
If that is the discussion it was nice being able to communicate with great contributors like Richard and a few others.....
To all take care and happy holidays!
Terry
Off topic, I do think that Richard and Terry can be a bit paranoid about the toxins in common construction materials, but I can add some anecdotal information. In high school I made a lot of speaker and subwoofer enclosylures out of mdf. I worked in a tiny shop with no dust collection, air filtration, or ventilation. I didn't wear a dust mask much either. I would leave the shop covered in very fine mdf must and my nasal passages were covered too. Could turn a dozen Kleenex brown.
Shortly there after I developed chronic rhinitis that I still have today. That means I 'm chronically congested. It's very annoying, but I've learned to live with it. I try to avoid mdf at all costs now due to the dust and formaldehyde concerns. I now have a properly equipped shop and wear dust masks, but I seldom see carpenters wearing these on site. I also know several older carpenters with lung issues.
Richard & Terry,
Can you guys take it somewhere else, please? Every single thread on this forum is turning into how toxic building materials are and it's getting out of control. Why can't the two of you take it to a private email session and you can discuss all of your theories amongst each other and not drag every thread into this tangent of yours.
The OP just wanted to know how much water OSB can take and you both have turned it into a train wreck. It's not just this thread but other threads as well (the plumbing thread, the PVC thread, etc). OK, we get it, you think everything is toxic and causes cancer. In other words: Your posts are off-topic and getting out of control.
Peter L,
I'm concerned for you. Why would anyone's post advising about chemicals (MSDS) and safety be offensive to you? As "Professionals" advising the DIY community, isn't it our duty to inform from time to time when another professional has his/her information wrong? Isn't that what happened here? What may be inert and technically safe in a finished manufactured state is not necessarily the same when you alter that same building product. Read the MSDS.
"Your not working with your Great Grandfather's lumber anymore!"
Richard, it's not that the discussion around chemicals might not be important, but that it isn't always going to be germane to the question. We all have our pet enthusiasms. I, perhaps inappropriately, often comment on the merits of the architectural design when it is very peripheral to the issue at hand. We need to try and contain our tendencies. Every question concerning an assembly containing OSB doesn't need a screed on the chemical dangers of the material, or an admonition that no answer is possible without long term engineering studies. It doesn't help or move our knowledge base forward.
Malcolm,
I agree, but first we must understand that not all questions are asked by pro's like yourself and we as professionals do have a duty to warn when necessary. In this case it became necessary after a few off topic comments were made.
Have a Very Merry Christmas!
Thanks Richard. Best of the season to you too.
Martin, good luck with reigning this in. I hope you succeed. I think the preface you give about being nice on the Q&A struck absolutely the right tone. It is being ignored by Terry and Richard. It really is unfortunate that the admission to be nice by yourself and others is itself met with hostility as an affront to these two of their freedom. I think they must have been weaned on a dill pickle. It's the only reasonable explanation I can think of. Neither has any shame whatsoever for blatantly ignoring the three suggestions for commenting.
Eric Habegger your comment; "I think they must have been weaned on a dill pickle."
In my opinion, this is what generates hostility.
Please refrain from sharing your San Francisco style private pickle hobbies with the rest of us and insinuating it's how we like to live our lives.
Also, what does this have to do with wet OSB? Never mind, I seriously do not want to hear your definition or anything else from your "Village People", enjoy ;).
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVvi2TZdUh20A9mgPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?p=village+people&tnr=21&vid=E885664F1A17EDFDA170E885664F1A17EDFDA170&l=242&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608041501200682134%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCS9OO0S5w2k&sigr=11bnvldd8&tt=b&tit=Village+People+-+YMCA+OFFICIAL+Music+Video+1978&sigt=11fnngpvj&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dvillage%2Bpeople%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=12ql2mfsj&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
However, I'm glad you know how to follow the rules beyond the rest of us here and I'm sorry your offended by factual published data.
Happy Holidays to you and your pickles!
I just meant you both have very sour dispositions and thus the pickle references. For both of you it's all about you, 24-7. I stand by it.
Colleen, I just want to make sure fully understood my post and I answered your question. I posted very little about health related issue and OSB, I wanted to make sure the others that are confused did not confuse you. I backed off to Richards expertise in this health issue area he is very wise and smart!
In general is not a good idea to paint OSB. As I posted the manufacture voids the warranty immediately (eg: 500 day advantec) because some solvents and chemicals in paint can react to the "free formaldehyde" and other "active chemicals" on the MSDS. This reaction can emit some gas but no where in my post did I get into that, again I am sure Richard can answer that. The MSDS states that OSB can not be subjected to acids, solvents, etc, because it "reacts" to them. This reaction causes a break down of OSB/s ability to permeate or seal air and moisture or it's perm rating making it higher, it's "moisture content" or ability to store and manage water lower, shown in the data sheets due to the fact that the manufactures resin and binder contents are very low amounts to cut cost. Some are also putting primers and other membranes on it that can do essentially the same thing, break it down affecting it's ability to hold and manage water, perm rating: cause rot, fungi, decay, etc, which is the same you did question in your OP, paint can take down the exposure levels. The reaction can happen immediately, meaning the paint you thought was going to protect it broke it down per the manufacture, not me. I'm just trying to explain it better then they do.
I stated that low voc paints reduce the risk, however, they do not eliminate it. If you are going to use it do not pigment or color it with an iron oxide, some of them contain solvents which is exactly what is stated as being harmful by the manufacture.
As far as how much can it be exposed to rain, that the manufacture has a rating of acceptable exposures, we looked at two Advantec 500 days, Georgia Pacific class 1 "normal conditions of construction" exposure....that gave you the ability to look at your product for the exact same information and rating. Not all OSB is created equal, but all the above I just stated applies to it all and fully answers your questions.
Richard, you’re absolutely correct that people that are not “professionals” (engineers, chemist) or competent like you and I in mating materials have no business designing or advising. The MSDS provides a chemical breakdown and warnings and design info, along with the health hazards. If you do not understand the warning’s and materials call the manufacture, you may get someone that can determine if it is acceptable to mate paints, primers, membranes, you may not….they will more than likely need the detailed components of the applications to make the proper determination, lab test, their own professionals that will cost you money, or will more than likely tell you not to alter the chemical design of their OSB in any way. The other advice is to hire your own professional. If you decide to ignore the warnings and advice, the OSB properties will more than likely change for the worse, meaning, it will not perform well in rain or at all as Richard and I fully described above. Visual inspections in the field are not enough to make chemical reactive quality decisions to determining that paint for example has not altered the chemical content or degraded OSB.
This thread provides an example of people that have no business matting materials or advising validated by a lack of understanding of the chemistry and experience in their post. Some know what they don’t know, and do not know what to even look at.
Thanks Richard for bringing some errors on material content to my attention. It is clear we provided the most accurate answers to the Ops question and had a little fun along the way : ) no harm done!
RICK VAN HANDEL: GOOD POST! SORRY TO READ YOU ARE PERMANENTLY DAMAGED FROM CHEMICALS (MDI) COMMONLY FOUND IN OSB.