Water, and water conservation
wjrobinson
| Posted in Green Building Techniques on
This is a discussion that I am moving from where a thread went off topic.
Posts to follow;
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The energy star thread went way off topic. I have moved some posts about water conservation here. The posts about water were between myself(aj) and Brett and anonymous. My post to Dylan started it and follows;
Dylan, my take for years now, is that for me, build to my own specs. If a program has a flaw, I am setting the specs. not the program.
For example water conservation. Where I build we have an over abundance of water. So I focus on energy use reduction and now am pushing the local natural materials idea.
ANSWERED BY AJ BUILDER, UPSTATE NY ZONE 6A
Posted Sat, 01/29/2011 - 15:47
10. AJ,
Even in areas that "have an abundance of water" you should still be conscious about water efficiency and water conservation. I'm sure in most of the homes in your area are connected to utility potable water sources.
Many people don’t realize how much electricity is used in water purification, distribution, and sewage treatment. In some municipalities, water treatment and distribution facilities are among the top consumers of electricity. Where are most cities getting there electricity from? Dirty energy- COAL power plants.
So by reducing household water consumption you:
save water- a valuable resource
save money on reduced water bills
save money on reduced energy consumed to heat hot water
reduce carbon emissions from electricity used in water purification, distribution, and sewage treatment
ANSWERED BY BRETT MOYER
Posted Sat, 01/29/2011 - 16:55
12. Brett, I hear you. However.
1- We really have way too much water. Really. Way too much. I apologize for bragging to anyone living in Las Vegas. Water is not valuable here period. Come take whatever amount you need please.
2- We have minimum usage bills. So no way for a homeowner to save below minimum.
3- Hot water use, well, I do like the new washers that that can clean clothes with almost no water. Neat. I also like the idea of solar water heating so heating water is not material to me. Use solar and use plenty of water to enjoy our short time on this planet. I will leave the once a week bathing to others.
4- As to purification, we have water so damn pure that I drink from our lake every time I swim, just open up and take it in. Look, we are just real lucky. And as to pumping, we have water tanks up on the mountainside here that used to gravity feed our local water. Regulations after 9/11 screwed that up.
I am not saying I am opposed to water conservation Brett, it just is at the bottom of the priority list due to how good we have it around my parts. Come on by, you can have all the water you can haul away Brett, on me.
ANSWERED BY AJ BUILDER, UPSTATE NY ZONE 6A
Posted Sat, 01/29/2011 - 18:08
Edited Sat, 01/29/2011 - 18:09.
Edit Answer
13. There can never be too much fresh, pure water.
ANSWERED BY ANONYMOUS
Posted Sat, 01/29/2011 - 19:16
14. Your post is an empty statement. There can be too much water in places on this planet. There is more than what we need where I live. That simple. Water is regional. Where there is not an overabundance then of course use less or use none.
The Living Buidling Challenge is quite an aggressive program for us all to strive to be able to participate in.
There idea of water use is to use only what falls on one's property. Fully selfcontained. Neat idea. We have so much water where I live that we can easily meet this challenge. I hope to build to this program someday soon.
Please think about coming out from behind a non name to some initials or something and posting what you do, like, builder or homeowner, along with general location and interests. I am sure you could add much to a discussion besides just your short posts that you have been putting up all over for the last few days. Yes?
Good luck... join, and enjoy the site.
Oh and it seems like you are into natural green building. Check out the Living Building Challenge. If you search Google you will find most of their documents in PDF form. Enough reading to keep you busy for a few hours at least.
http://ilbi.org/lbc
Some facts to back up my lakeside posting. Annual rainfall 45". We don't use 45" of rain, not even close. Another fact less known. The Adirondacks is an area with mountains separated by water, lakes, streams, rivers. It is a park. We don't have many humans living here and never will. And one last tidbit, for every inch of rain that falls it collects into our wet valleys (lakes, etc.) then adds up to more than an inch. My lake goes up two inches or more for every inch that drops from the sky.
We have water. Lots of it period. End of story.
ANSWERED BY AJ BUILDER, UPSTATE NY ZONE 6A
Posted Sat, 01/29/2011 - 19:47
Edited Sat, 01/29/2011 - 19:57.
Edit Answer
AJ,
Brett gave you some good advice. You should listen to him.
Water is a little different from fossil fuel. We will never run out, and it is naturally renewable. Using it doesn't contribute to global warming.
Yes, it does cost energy to process it. That cost and others are included in your water bill.
So, definitely conserve water if you like to conserve dollars. Home energy audits are confusing and hard to interpret in terms of where to spend your dollars. Home water usage audits are dead simple. Simple ROI analysis can be used to determine if that new water saving toilet is a good investment. Same thing goes for grey water usage, rain collection, etc., you don't need to worry about unless it's worth doing.
In some locales with high water costs, a water usage rating for a house could be useful. But it should be in dollars/yr as well as gallons. And it should absolutely should be kept separate from the energy rating.
Lucas, compare what I posted to what Brett posted. Explain to me where my logic is off and I will learn something.
FYI, the water sitting right now in front of my home for 2,000 homes is, drum roll
775,525,380,000 gallons. (775 billion gallons)
Divide that by 8 years it takes to fill our lake = 96,940,672,500 gallons
Divide by 2,000 homes = 48,470,336 gallons per home
Divide by 365 days/yr =132,795 per home per day
Not too shabby. Bring your water buckets when you visit. You can take 100, 000 gallons a day from each of our homes and we may not miss it.
Another factoid not so in my favor however.
30 gallons on average of water fall on my property per day. About what is used actually. Not big on dishwasher use, short shower use home regulated by small hot water tank, and next change is a water miser of a washing machine. Still, like I said, we do have to pay the minimum gallonage rate even if we drop lower and we are not allowed to disconnect from the municipal supply even if we went all out and did the "Living Building Challenge" of using no offsite water.
http://ilbi.org/lbc
Kevin, I have to disagree.
1. Water's significance as a resource goes beyond regional considerations. Many water resources are shared by more than one region/state/province/country and mismanagement or misuse of a water resource by one party causes trouble for all parties.
2. Water is more like fossil fuels than you may realize. Extremely large volumes of water are an essential input for almost all forms of energy production as well as for agriculture and other things most people consider imortant.
3. As was already mentioned, large amounts of energy are used to purify water and move it to where it's needed. The energy used for these purposes has a large carbon footprint.
4. The "hydrologic cycle" is not entirely accurate. Like overly simplistic illustations of "the materials economy" it fails to include the human part of the equation. Water used for industrial purposes (agriculture, energy production, manufacturing, etc.) is often pumped out of the ground from aquifers that do not refill at anything close to the rate that we make withdrawls. Also, water is often rendered unuseable (contaminated) when we're done with it.
5. Climate change is doing things that nobody can accurately predict. Many regions that were once rich in water are experiencing drought and desertification is ongoing.
You may be correct if you suggest that the total amount of water available on the planet won't change, but similar to the problem of peak oil, the quantity isn't really the issue. The real issue is the rate of supply.
A man stranded at sea in a life-raft will probably die of thirst before hunger despite the quantity of water surrounding him.
Lucas, Where I live, no industry except swimming in the water. No agriculture to speak of. Water is pure and drinkable at the source. And none of the water is being used elsewhere except for what we need to get rid of flows down stream eventually to downstate communities. That's when all the pollution is added to my nice local natural drinking water that we have excess of.
If every person in the Adirondacks left, downstate would not know we left. Their increase in water from our area would be zip.
Some of us are lucky and just do not have a water use issue.
AJ,
You need to broaden your sense of community. This is now a global village we live in. In 20 years, if you think you're going to enjoy an "over-abundance of water" while your countrymen 5 states over don't have any - think again.
OK... our local issue that the green types are working on is storm water management and invasive species. And we have some silly out of towners coming in wanting to build homes around our lakes with big fertilized lawns that can pollute. We need to ban lawns and ban fertilizer or just ban the goofy people that want them up here where we like our trees and pine needle yards.
Mr.AJ, Please excuse me, I did not mean to make an empty statement. I am trying to learn about green building and I thought that was what natural building is. I read about it in a Mother Earth magazine.
I did not know that there were area's that had too much fresh water, unless there is flooding or something like that. I just found this place today and don't know how to put my name on it yet. I like to read about this stuff but when it's hard to understand I feel dumb. Sorry
If the area that you live in has too much water why do you have to pay for it. They should pay you to use it up.
Upper right hand corner of page, sign up for free 10 day trial. Or just type in a name when you post works too but if you sign up you have edit privileges. I prefer for the future not to post back to anonymous. Thanks for understanding. Good luck
Lucas, What is the world going to do? Come to the Adirondacks with a pail in their hand?
I don't think we will start shipping water from the Adirondacks to San Diego or Quatar.
Every region must supply their own water from what they have is the way of the future. The Colorado never should have been tapped dry like it is today. Never. But, not my problem. My water can't help.
Water is a local issue.
Water is a world community problem. So I am of course willing to support others with water problems finding proper local solutions. It's the only way Lucas.
How can Adirondack residents help far off areas with water saving shower heads? Not possible. The use of water in our watershed for residential consumption and tourism is not even a percentage of what leaves this area to be used by the surrounding regions which is what you are saying. The only effect we have that is regulated is, the amount of hydro damn release, and that is to do with water levels out of region. And that is a problem that these out of area communities created for themselves. Towns away from us are overbuilt plane and simple. New York City has been a burden to New York for decades. Yes, they generate lots of corporate cash to tax but they still don't pay their way. Cities should have to pay their way and get water from desalination plants run from the sun. Unlimited growth is for the bible crowd and the corporate types and the Walmarts of the world. Give me more trees and bears than neighbors thank you.
Lucas, my initial point has been lost in the deep water. I locally need to prioritize energy use and proper green material selection and great lot siting and selection far ahead of water saving. If I lived in Las Vegas, I would make water use a top priority, and actually, I think the town should be dismantled.
Lucas,
You make some good points worth thinking about. However, you haven't convinced me that people should worry about water the way we need to worry about fossil fuel.
1. Fossil fuel is running out and using it contributes to global warming. Greenbuilding is mainly about solving those two problems.
2. Water isn't running out. As you point out, it may get scarcer in some places. Scarcity makes the price go up. If the price gets too high, then it doesn't make sense to live there anymore. Like AJ said, Las Vegas may get dismantled. In the big picture, so what? There may even be "water wars", where a desperate country without water invades another one with water. I like to think that would be easy to work out, like dispersing the population of the dry country to other countries, and abandon the dry country. (See Montserrat)
In Denver, we had a severe drought earlier this century, and an advertising campaign begging us to conserve solved the problem without a major price increase. Just the fear of a price increase was enough to reduce consumption. It turns out that we use the majority of our water on our non-native grass lawns. We dropped consumption by 30% almost overnight.
That experience taught me not to worry about water. Yes, those aquifers are dropping, and those folks will eventually pay more for water, use less, and those aquifers will hit a balance point. All the agriculture and industrial-use water eventually comes back to us, purified, like magic.
So yeah, we need some folks worrying about water, but supply and demand will take care of most of the issues.
Kevin, I wish I could share your faith in market signaling.
I have a hard time believing that a man-made construct can anticipate fixes to these types of problems with enough lead-time that practical solutions can be applied.
https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/energy-solutions/green-building-priority-2-reduce-water-use
Lucas we have been down this road. I agree to disagree with you.
Right now I pay 1/3 of a cent or less for water. Raise that price as fast as you want to and it will never impact me like raising the cost of gasoline. You raise my water cost too high and tomorrow I start collecting the water from my gutters. Done. Raise my cost of gasoline high enough and up will go enough solar collectors to charge my vehicles.
The sky is not falling everywhere but I do agree regionally there are worse places to live. Been there and always come home and kiss the ground in thanks for my place of birth.
And migration is a natural phenomena. Someday I may hit the road to parts unknown. What will be there? An ocean, a hammock and no GBA connection.
The government is using emnant domane to take away some land with good wells on it where I live.
Good water is hard to find. You are a lucky man Mr. AJ. Who do you have to pay for your water?