Spray foam health issues
Eight days ago, we had spray foam (believe Carlisle open cell) applied on our second floor. It was formerly an attic but was converted years ago to 2 beds and 1 bathroom. We are in Georgia. It gets very hot up there.
Off of our bedroom we have a full size door we’re you can enter an unfinished space that we use for clothes and other storage. Spray foam was also applied through another small door that contains our furnace.
On the day of install, we were downstairs all day…no one told us to leave bi saw no ventilation equipment used.
The strong smell (chemical not fishy) continued and is markedly strong in the attic walk-in space.
I have experienced difficulty breathing, eye irritation and headaches. I have been sleeping downstairs. I feel better, downstairs, outside the home but work from home.
The installer also failed to put up a thermal barrier, which i understand learned is code and never checked venting by the furnace. They agreed to apply DC-315.
They are bringing an HVAC person to look at the job.
I truly don’t know who to speak with.
They agreed to remove the foam if that’s what we want but I understand that is another potential health hazard.
I have a college aged daughter who lives here sometimes with asthma, etc.
mid anyone could provide next steps, I am truly worried, feel ill and can longer use my home.
Appreciate and all next steps and advice. Thank You!!!
GBA Detail Library
A collection of one thousand construction details organized by climate and house part
Replies
Also, the application seems to be quite thick. Way beyond the rafter beams (not trimmed) so no idea if an issue, contractor did not think it was a problem.
Hi Temj.
Sorry to hear you are not feeling well. Even though it has been over a week, I'd wait a little longer and continue to ventilate the spaces where the foam was installed. This is not an uncommon story and sometimes a few weeks of good ventilation resolves the issue. However, if the odor persists, there may have been a problem with the installation, which is the most common cause of lingering odors. Check out this article for some more information, and please let us know how things work out: Spray Foam Jobs With Lingering Odor Problems
Thank You. Yes, I understand it came take up to two weeks for “off gassing” to stop. If it was simply odor, that would be more manageable. I, unfortunately, seem to have the other issues re eye irritation, breathing, etc. Will continue to ventilate and hope for success.
Will keep Board updated for others. Fingers crossed this resolves.
Temj,
I hate hearing these stories. They all seem to have a common theme; "we were in the house when they were spraying....". I just don't get it. Why any company would allow the homeowner to stay in the house is beyond me. I built our entire 3rd story. We had part of it foamed. Although I had all the proper gear, they still would not allow me in the house after they were done spraying. They made me sign an agreement that said I wouldn't go in the house.
They also separated the house with a zip wall and had cross ventilation fans (one pumping in and the other pumping out) at two windows.
I'm sorry for your experience. Anecdotally, from the vast research I did b4 pulling the trigger on our spray foam install, if if still smells after a few days, it's probably not going to get better. And some reports state that those who are inside the house when spray develop a hyper sensitivity to the smell, something no one else would pick up on.
I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction. For people considering it, if your contractor is not going out of there way to make sure you know not to go in the house and they are not venting and sectioning off when doing an addition, they are 100% not qualified to be doing this.
I hate these stories also. I don't understand why anyone ever uses spray foam unless there is no alternative.
I wouldn't have but it was the only logical choice given our third story addition. We have an old roof and a new roof intersect and lost the ability to vent on one side. Additionally, when we cracked open the drywall to sister trusses in the existing area, we found light mold. Not black and easily remedied, but, since it was on the north facing side only, we decided that it was best to just move to a closed vent system for that room which had the added benefit of relieving the need for a wild, out of the box resolution to our south side venting issues.
Get your point. In the hands of the competent, this is a good product for many scenarios.
David. Why wouldn't mineral wool batts or cellulose have been an alternative, given that the R values are similar to open cell foam?
Stephen,
I used closed cell foam. No way to get r value in the bays with open cell. Additionally, it all came down to our venting scenario. The new roof came perpendicular to the existing roof, after it was build covered all but three vented rafter bays. This is a finished bonus room with attic trusses. So, without a wanky deisgn that probably wouldn't work anyway, and given that this roof runs east/west and faces north south, a closed vent system was the only option that made any sense.
It wasn't a questions of what to use to the r-value. That is a code requirement. It was a questions of what to do to have a workable roof system.
Answer: It's a great all-in-one product (air sealing, insulation).
Too bad it's difficult to install correctly because formulators haven't figured out a way to expand the conditions under which it can be applied.
Deleted
Deleted
Trying to add some video but here’s a picture.
I am no expert and I don't have pics of mine. All I can say is that mine did not look like that. Mine had very few bumps or ridges/valleys. It was uniform and in most places smooth as you ran your hand over it.
It's one of the few things I did not take pics of for some reason. The looks may mean nothing, but what I do know is that you have to let one pass set b4 hitting it with another. They sprayed 5000 bf of foam in my house with 2x6 rafters. They were here for about 12 hours working. About one hour on set up, may 90 minutes and the rest spraying. They came out and took breaks and I talked with them as I had the RV set up in the front yard where I stayed with the girls were enjoying pool time and grandmas. They told me that they want to make sure the chemical reaction is complete b4 applying another coat.
After about 36 hours, my wife walked in and asked "where's the smell?".
I am curious about how much and how long it took to do your. Again, sorry for your experience.
Ours was not a huge job but still start to finish, maybe 4-5 hours tops. No noticeable breaks. No fans. Never even said they were leaving, just left.
The foam is very very thick. Comes wayyyy past the rafters. It wasn’t trimmed/made smooth for Sheetrock. No idea why it is so thick. It will be 7 days tomorrow and the strong chemically odor is still there. The owner coming tomorrow.
I have the exact same building orientation as you David B w/ 2x8 rafters. I am doing CC spray foam in a month...
This looks normal for an attic. When open-cell spray foam is applied to an are which will receive sheet rock (cathedral ceiling, exterior wall) the installer will shave it flush with the studs in order provide a flat nailing surface.
Do you have a fan running pushing air to the outdoors from this space?
Furnace area...if anyone spots issues, please let me know.
Deleted
Deleted
That flex duct above the furnace looks like it’s locked into the spray foam. They should have moved that out of the way and COVERED THE FURNACE while spraying! I’d check if any spray foam was sucked into the furnace at all. They should have shut off and covered the furnace while they were working.
What you want is some continuous cross flow ventilation in your attic for at least 48 hours, or longer if needed. Ideally you’d open a window at both ends and put a box fan in one of the windows blowing OUT. The fan blowing out will keep the attic at a slight negative pressure which should help to keep any spray foam smells from leaking into the house. Chances are you’ll be OK after ventilating the space for a few days like this. If you can’t open windows (or something similar), you need to use a ducted fan with the fan in the attic and the duct going wherever it can get out of the house. These units can be rented.
Your spray foam install looks ok. The bumpy look with points probably means the installer moved the spray gun a little more slowly than optimal. It’s notoriously tricky to get a really smooth surface. The spray foam contractor I like to use commercially prides himself on getting as smooth a surface as possible, and has a story he likes to tell about another install he saw once that was super smooth that really impressed him. You want a spray foam installer with OCD, it really helps here.
If you continue to have offgassing issues, have the installers take a core sample of the spray foam to make sure it’s properly cured all the way through. If they applied it with a far too slow gun movement, they could have accidentally put in lifts (layers) that are too thick which can result in poor curing.
You should NOT have been in the house during application. I tell people to have the installation done on a Friday so that they can take a weekend trip and stay out of the house for several days for the stink to dissipate. You can become sensitized to isocyanates with prolonged exposure (which is why the installers need safety gear with an air supply), and you don’t want to breath the fumes when they’re at their strongest during installation.
You should feel better after ventilating the space. You shouldn’t have any lasting health issues. The spray foam itself is actually a very stable and inert material once it’s fully and properly cured.
Bill
Thank you very much. A lot to take in. We have the HVAC person tomorrow, so this helps. None of these things were done. : (
I like the idea of taking the sample.
Thank you and I will post any updates for those who can learn from my post.
Get lots of ventilation in there ASAP.
Here is the application guide, which outlines the ventilation requirements: https://www.carlislesfi.com/wp-content/uploads/CSFI-10255-SealTite-PRO-Open-Cell-Application-Guide_REV01-19_PRESS.pdf
My installer required no entry to the house for 24hrs. They also had a pair of ducted fans rated for 2000cfm. All horizontal surfaces were covered with plastic sheet to collect overspray. They spent probably 4-6 hours just doing prep work before the day they actually sprayed a walk up 1000sf attic space.
Smooth foam is typical of closed cell done well, open cell is much harder to put down smooth.
Check for clearance around the furnace for combustion clearance. This should be done immediately if it is being used. Given the use of the space for storage a thermal barrier is required. If paint is used, ventilation should be used during and after the application.
Do you know how many SF of foam was sprayed and how thick? You can use a cut wire coat hanger to verify the thickness. You can only spray 6” in a single pass. 4-5 hrs is pretty quick and leads to the suspicion of not applying two passes, which can cause issues.
6” is actually pretty thick for one lift. The max thickness per lift varies with different foam types so you have to check the manufacturers data sheet for the specific product being installed to know for sure.
You need to wait for the spray foam to fully cure before applying any fire retardants too — applying the paint-on products too soon can lead to problems.
Bill
Update. The contractor seems to be owning the mistakes. He brought in an air quality/HVAC person today who works with a lot of reputable ppl we know in the area. Right now, we have the industrial two-way fan pulling the area out and venting to the outside. We will leave that running for a few days. After that, they will remove all of the old insulation, trim the foam and apply the DC-315 thermal barrier. Then, they intend to install foam board over it, as well as install a fan-like thing (forget the name) that we will run as needed. Not an ERV, something else.
On the furnace side, there are a few issues they will address but not as much as the attic side.
Fingers crossed that this all goes well. If so, my only additional concern is that we are in the south and the attic space/roofline gets very direct sun, which might cause the smell to kick-up.
I don't want anyone to go through the time, energy, etc. to then just have to pull out the foam. Time will tell. Thank you for the comments.
Quick update. Now that we are moving the air upstairs, I can feel the effects of the foam again. And, this is the first time I am getting a metallic taste in my mouth. Hmmmm.
What do you mean here? If there is a fan in the attic sucking in attic air and blowing it outdoors, you shouldn’t be smelling the foam anymore. “Metallic” taste might be hot electrical stuff or similar. You might want to check to make sure wherever the blower is exhausting the attic air isn’t close a fresh air intake for your home.
Bill
It seems as the attic air is clearing a bit but the smell is now in the hall etc. the attic door is open and that makes it worse. I will give it more time to flush through. We intend to run if for about three days. I don’t think anything is not venting properly...at this point. Thanks again.
It’s probably that open door. I’m not sure if spray foam fumes are heavier or lighter than air, so I don’t know if they’ll “fall” down into the house through an open door or not. My advice would be to close the door and prop it open a few inches. This should be enough to keep the fan supplied with air, but will limit how much the attic air can circulate and mix with the air in your home.
Bill
I would wait a few weeks before doing anything to make sure things are reasonably stable. It may make sense to take some core samples to verify the quality of the foam and that it has cured completely. This is a good guide: https://polyurethane.americanchemistry.com/Spray-Foam-Coalition/Guidance-on-Sampling-Techniques-for-the-Inspection-of-Installed-Spray-Polyurethane-Foam.pdf
If they are going to trim the foam flat and put up foam board you can skip the DC315, which has its own set of smell issues. For the foam use 1" polyiso board and tape all the seems to create an air tight barrier. Then install 1/2" drywall right against the foam board with long drywall screws. Drywall is a more effective from a fire standpoint than the paint and this approach will seal most of the foam from the house.
Thank you for this information. Yes, once the air circulates, they plan to take some of the old fiberglass out. Then, I will hold and see how the smell/effects go. The HVAC/air quality person, who came with the contractor, said I have the hallmarks of exposure from being in the home. Moving this air again seems to have triggered my reaction a bit. I am staying outside as much as possible. Staying downstairs, etc.
...and interesting about the DC-315. We need a thermal barrier per code, etc. but no smell strong materials would be best.
1/2” drywall and 23/32 sheathing are the standard thermal barriers and preferable to dc315.
They should use a ducted fan in a quickly made plywood door for ventilation.
temj,
that's what I suspected. It's a common theme. If you can get out for a while, like a week or two, I'd probably do that to see if you can reduce your sensitivity. Not a doctor and not a contractor, but I did a phd's worth of research before I used spray foam and I can tell you that almost every horror story I read started with "I was in the house when the sprayed..."
Wishing you the best in resolving this.
temj.
found a few pics. Drywall is going up in these pics, but you can see the spray foam behind it in the blue sort of color. You'll note how smooth and even it is compared to yours. Almost no trimming except for on the 2x6 on the slope. the pics are a visually misleading as it looks like the cavities aren't near full. The reality is that they are full to a range of about 1/2-1/4 inch with the foam covering all the sides of the rafters to reduce thermal bridging.
Again, not an expert here, but one of these is not like the other. I asked them why they did not spay all the way out past the rafters and trim it to exact. I would not have been much more spray foam, so I wasn't really worried about it. They told me that once it is cured and the outer later is hardened, it actually reduces the efficacy by trimming that hardened out layer off. So, their process is to may multiple passes getting it to as close to the perfect thickness as possible so all they have to do is trim a few high spots and clean the rafters.
Inspectors thought they did a great job. Curious (based on the pics) what others think. See picks.
Your job couldn’t look more different. We were shocked when we opened the door at the amount of foam.
I plan to run the fan as requested. Close the attic door and just open periodically for a week. If it still smells, it probably has to go.
The Air guy felt the foam was fine. But, I guess we will see.
Brian, the OP has open cell foam, which is 1/4 the density of the closed cell foam in your photo. Because it expands 4x of what closed cell does it is very hard to put down flat.
With closed cell foam, the inability to have the foam be flush significantly increases the thermal shunting through the framing.
Oh...that makes sense. But still seemed like a tremendous amount. And without any ventilation on application, think that was a contributing factor. No idea what the applicators were thinking.
ah, yes. Hard to control. Good point.
As you can see from mine, the sides of the rafters are completely covered and there is but a slight dip in the middle so as to reduce the thermal loss associated with short filling. In reality, doing open cell and trimming back versus the job on my house would produce no better results. If the sides of the rafters were not covered in closed cell, yes, you are correct. Generally speaking, I don't think most contractors take the time to do it right which results in a lot of dissatisfaction with the product.
ah, yes. Hard to control. Good point.
As you can see from mine, the sides of the rafters are completely covered and there is but a slight dip in the middle so as to reduce the thermal loss associated with short filling. In reality, doing open cell and trimming back versus the job on my house would produce no better results. If the sides of the rafters were not covered in closed cell, yes, you are correct. Generally speaking, I don't think most contractors take the time to do it right which results in a lot of dissatisfaction with the product.