Snow Removal
arnoldk
| Posted in General Questions on
Hi,
This is not a directly related building question but it comes from buying a 23 acres property to build a Pretty Good House.
I am trying to figure out if buying a tractor is really worth the cost. The main reason would be for snow removal of a 340 feet driveway and work around the property and very small hobby farm.
– What are some of you doing for snow removal for your rural/country property with a long driveway?
– If you do the own snow removal, what type of equipment (tractor, pickup truck, standard snow blower…)?
Thank you,
Kris Heiss
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Replies
Where are you located? I had a 200' paved driveway that I shoveled by hand. Others used snowblowers. I was in CO where we'd get feet of snow in blizzards, but it was like powder, and the high altitude sun and dry winds would help evaporate it quickly too. Not many evergreen trees blocking the sun on the property. Not like the heavier wetter snow and overcast skies of New England. This was a residential area not a farm property, and I'm no farmer so can't comment on other uses.
Hi Robert,
I am located in Ottawa, Canada where we do enough snow starting somewhere in-between the end of November to mid December. I suspect the weather and snow accumulation is similar to snowy Vermont.
Kris
I would find out what your neighbors do. There are so many variables in snow removal -- how much it snows, how wet the snow is, how cold it gets -- that there are no universal answers. Unless the ground freezes hard where you are your driveway is going to take a beating from snow removal. I don't get much snow and there have been years I just parked by the road and walked the few times there was enough snow I couldn't make it down the driveway.
To the broader question of a tractor -- I have a hobby farm and I own a 35 HP diesel utility tractor. I use it all the time. It it worth it? In one sense, no, most of the stuff I do with it doesn't really "need" to be done, and the rest I could probably hire out fairly reasonably. (Nobody's getting rich operating a tractor). But it's worth it to me. One thing to keep in mind is that your driveway is going to need maintenance, probably grading every year and new gravel every 3-4 years. The thing about a utility tractor is that it can do a lot of things, but it's never the best tool for the job. So pulling a back blade you can do a passable job leveling a driveway, but it won't be as good or as quick as a grader with the blade between the wheels. Similarly, if you try to plow with a tractor it will clear the snow, but not as well as a real snow plow. Snow blowers for tractors tend to mount on the rear, which means you have to blow in reverse, looking over your shoulder.
Thank you for your response DCContrarian and I am starting to agree with you regarding the return on investment. If we do get a tractor, my wife would prefer we get right after the house built to take advantage of all of the initial work the property will need in those early years.
As for snow removal, some of the neighbours who have shorter driveway tend to do it themselves with a snowblower while those with longer driveway seem to hiring it out. I haven't spoken to all of my neighbours in the area but I may take a drive this winter after a good snow fall to see.
We are in an area that at least half of urban household own a snowblower because of the amount of snow we do get per year.
Thanks,
Kris
If you're going to participate at all in the construction a tractor is very handy. A huge amount of the labor of construction is moving materials in and debris out, tractors are good at that, especially if you get forks. I've used the front bucket as a portable scaffold for painting and siding, and to hold a bundle of shingles at the edge of the roof when roofing. I've used the front bucket to pack a dumpster tighter. And there's a lot of digging of holes and moving of dirt that go into building a house.
The standard disclaimer is that a utility tractor isn't as good a forklift as a forklift, it's not as good at digging as an excavator, it's not as good at grading as a bulldozer, etc.
Arnold K,
I am a disheartened tractor owner from the stand point of snow. I am high up in Colorado where the snow is generally pretty fluffy and prone to evaporating (seemingly) if one can wait. I bought a plow for the tractor as part of my grand plan to do all the landscaping and site work I could handle with the loader and backhoe attachments, then plow the driveway come winter.
I will be getting rid of the tractor sooner than later now that most of my outside chores are done. The type of snow we get is best moved with a large curved blade that can be angled and moved much faster than my tractor can handle. I can do it, I just don't like the time it takes. My neighbor has a Rhino type ATV thing with a fiberglass plow which just whips through snow. It is quick and efficient.
My plow attaches to the same bracket the loader bucket uses, which means the whole assembly places the blade out in front of the front axle by close to five feet. The result is the blade is always out of sync with the ground under the front axle. The positive pressure float feature of the loader arms is useless, as the downward pressure of the system places too much force on the blade. If I had a paved driveway, it might function more successfully, but I don't.
I have 800+ feet of packed gravel over a deep base that requires a light touch with my plow to survive. The button feet on the plow which are meant to control the engagement depth are a sick joke. Even the snow ski attachments I created to prevent gouging the driveway with the plow edge have not made the process pleasant.
DC is quite right about the driveway needing maintenance, especially for the first few years while stuff settles into place. Proper crowning or tipping of the driveway surface will take a while to lock in. Not plowing until the ground is frozen is absolutely necessary with my tractor. The neighbors blade mount on his Rhino puts the blade barely 2' in front of the front wheels so the blade and vehicle more closely coordinate when encountering dips or crowns. He can get away with plowing the first snowfalls. It is so dry here that the first couple of snowfalls practically get sucked into the ground.
A back blade is not real practical when the snowfall is 12-15" because you have to drive through what you want to plow first. That packs it down. The snow blower idea has merits, but the rocks going through on a stone faced driveway would put a lot of wear on the impellers. I did briefly consider buying two standard snow blowers and mount them on the front loader bracket, but my spouse nixed that promptly. If I don't spring for a Rhino like set up, then a beat up pickup with a plow is my next choice.
In defense of the tractor, I have used the backhoe and loader bits extensively. If you are determined to do the grunt work of moving dirt yourself, get one like DC's 35 hp with a hydrostatic drive. I went smaller and everything takes more trips. If you can get used, do that. The resale on a used will be better. There are more than a few 70' (and earlier) vintage tractors around that command prices that seem unlikely. I would strongly suggest against a manual/clutch tractor if you are doing work close in around the house. The hydrostatic drives make close work to structures quite manageable.
Last tip for your driveway. Don't let anyone sell you round rock as a base. All layers need to be fractured rock with fines. Terminology differs around the country(s) so look up what the definitions are in your area. Mind the drainage and set a base of large material and then work upward with declining material sizes from there. Having cement trucks come and go will provide extra settling, which is good to do before going all in the finer top layers.
Locally, the story is you put down 4" the first year and watch that disappear, the next size the next year and watch that disappear, then maybe 3/4 and watch that disappear for two years. After that you can worry about being pretty. It is possible to do it all in one year, it just takes more equipment and money than most will find palatable.
Re: resale -- I looked at it the other way. I bought new because I looked at used and generally they were asking almost as much as new for machines that were a decade or more old and had thousands of hours of use. I'd rather get the warranty and new condition for a little more money. If you look on the tractor forums (which I recommend) a lot of guys say they buy a piece of equipment for a job and then sell it when they're done for close to what they paid for it.
That holds true from what little research I've done. What are the guys who are buying then reselling purchasing? I'm guessing that whatever depreciation does occur happens mostly up front, so I would guess they are buying used. Is that right?
Hi Roger and DC,
Thank you for your responses and I appreciate the feedback. I have started to figure out from reading that a tractor is the jack of all trade and master of none. I think in my case that isn't a deal breaker since I would other do must of the chores by hand like I have been since we bought the vacant tree lot 3 1/2 years ago. Also if we were to buy a tractor, it would be once the house is weather tight and I am "living" there.
I have not ruled out buying used but I have found that used tractors tend to hold their value which don't end up being all that much cheaper as DC mentioned. They also tend to come with additional attachments that I wouldn't buy and may never use which I guess I could sell. I suspect this may vary depending on your region.
We get enough snow with a number of 12 inches+ snow storm that a snowblower will be required unless I want to start pushing snow banks back mid season, assuming they are not frozen solid come February or having to creating new piles around the property.
My driveway was installed just over a year ago using 12 inches of Granular B (around 2-3") as the base on top of geotextile fabric which was packed down by a drum packer. The finish layer of 3/4" gravel will be installed after construction.
Thank you,
Kris
In high school I often plowed my dad's residential snowplowing accounts (and may have done some in junior high--don't tell anyone). I have a large garden tractor with a snowplow and a snowblower, and a two-stage walk-behind snowblower. I could move my own snow, yet I hire someone to plow my driveway, because it's much faster and less expensive than for me to do it. In the foreseeable future I'll get a small farm tractor, as I have many uses for it, but I will still likely have someone else beat up their truck and use their time to plow my driveway. I can do some cleanup. We get a mix of snow but a few storms a year are deep, heavy and wet.
On the other hand, there is economy of scale. My driveway is relatively large but nowhere near 340'. The cost of hiring it plowed may be more than opportunity cost of doing it yourself. If you have other properties to plow, or that you could plow, and if you like getting up super early or staying up super late during storms, maybe you'll find a nice little side business. Plowing is much faster than snowblowing or moving with a bucket but you need space on the sides of the driveway for the snowpiles to accumulate.
I have a 1,600 foot driveway and have a local lawn service guy who lives further down my street plow it for me in the winter. He charges me $50/push. It's not worth my buying a plow setup for that. If you can find a reliable "plow guy" for low cost, that's a much easier option.
With a shorter driveway, a plow blade or snowblower attachment for a garden tractor would probably be a good option, but make sure you get one of the quick-release type that's easy to change. You would probably want the enclosed cab and wheel weights too. Expect to make multiple passes to clear your drive since a garden tractor is a light weight machine. I'd think of it as "I need the tractor for mowing my grass, but I can get a plow add-on to use it to save me some money in the winter with snow plowing".
You can often find garden tractors on Craig's List for under $1k if you're patient. If you're careful, you can save some money that way. I've found the best time to look is in the spring and the fall when people are upgrading their equipment. If you want something higher end and are willing to spend more money, look at the smaller Kubota equipment. I like their BX23S, mainly because it has a backhoe attachment and I always seem to need to make a trench for something. You do pay a lot more for this type of tractor, but they last a lot longer than the cheaper lawn and garden stuff.
Bill
I live in rural Maine. I've had a tractor (30 hp diesel) for 20+ years. I use it a lot, but in all that time I've only got around 600 hours on it. But for moving heavy stuff, or brushhogging my fields every year, it's great. I have a 5' wide tiller attachment that tills my gardens in a few minutes. It's like a pick-up truck. It's not necessary for someone not in a business that needs one, but it sure comes in handy. I use both the tractor and the truck (2009 Tacoma with 65,000 miles) almost every day, just not intensively.
But I hire someone to plow my driveway, which is I guess around 200' long or so.
Michael Maines and Zephyr7 for your feedback on the snow removal front. The size of tractor that seems be fit my need base on articles I have read and some local dealer is a compact tractor (Kubota B2601 or LX2610 and the John Deere 2025R or 3025E).
Snow removal in my area seems to be high with quotes around $700 CAD for the season and those were from almost two years ago. My wife prefers doing what her uncles does which is pay per snow removal which he only does for the big storms. The rest of the time he does it himself with a plow in front of his ATV.
Kris
$700 CAD for the season actually seems very reasonable. I can't imagine any vehicle that would do the job that you could keep running for $700 a year all-in.
How important is it that you're out right away? Do you have a job like emergency room doctor where you absolutely have to get to work, or do you work from home? The reason I ask is that if you are on a pay-as-you go relationship with your plower he is going to do his regular customers first and you when he can get to it. If there is a big snowstorm that may be a few days. That's really the best reason to have your own snow removal capability, so you're not at the mercy of your contractor. Of course as Chris Jorgensen points out, then you have to worry about whether your equipment is going to work when you go to start it after it's been sitting for ten months and it's cold and dark.
We have a cheap rusty old plow truck that sits most of the year. Not for everyone, you need to be handy with mechanical repairs. I try my best to prep for winter so the truck is ready but always seems like something happens when it's a 12" storm. I look around sometimes for a replacement but after 19 years at least I know what I have with this one.
Built our own house 10 years ago next door to my family, got a mid-sized tractor(30hp 4 cylinder diesel) with a brush hog before we built. The land was an old apple orchard mostly untouched for 20 years, so I did a lot of mowing before we built. Used it to lift roof sheathing using removable forks.
We use both truck and tractor during winter, my brother-in-law drives my truck and I clean up with the tractor, it has 4 wheel drive and chains. One 800' and one 300' driveways, lot's of parking spaces.
I lived in Stowe, Vt for 10 years. Pay someone to plow your driveway. It's not much money and if you don't have a plow guy, what will you complain about all winter?
Return on investment and practicality in a hobby farm setting you can't beat a tracked skid steer. With various attachments (plow blade, toothed bucket, straight bucket, forks) you can use it for just about anything. I spent a little more and got one with accessory hydraulics. My 1/4 mile driveway is now paved so its one pass down the driveway with the blade, one pass up the driveway and now I have a brush attachment that uses the auxiliary hydraulics takes about 15 minutes for the whole thing.
I owned a tractor for 3 years after buying my property and sold it shortly after. A good tractor can do any task but unfortunately it doesn't quite do any of them well. I sold my mower and all accessories and bought a used Cat 299 with a full cab, I have no regrets.
Pay someone to plow the driveway (at least the big snows), but buy a compact tractor anyhow. On a property that size, you will always find uses for it. And an electric, golf-cart sized Carry All.
I have about 700' of driveway and a big parking area by the house so the delivery trucks can turn around safely and for people to park. I have a 4 year old, 45hp tractor with a rear mount blower, no cab. I live in Northwestern Minnesota so we get plenty of snow of all kinds and cold temps as well. One of the biggest hurdles of winters here are the snow drifts. Lots of open areas for the snow to be pushed around by the wind and it usually compacts it as well. Having a blower has saved my back plenty of times. I also use the tractor around the property for whatever. I mow with it, I till my garden, I can pull smaller root balls out of the ground, move dirt, etc. It's not the most nimble machine but I've learned what it can do and how to use it to my advantage.
The save grace for my property is it's fully treed with no real open area but the down fall is I don't have much space to push and pile snow which is why I am thinking I may need a snowblower attachment if I get a tractor.
My wife and I leaning more towards getting a compact tractor but that's still a year away. Base on everyone's comments, it's unlikely there will be a "return on investment" by getting a tractor to do my own snow removal and other property project. I guess it's like buying a vehicle versus taking public transit or renting a one for those few trips.
Thank you,
Kris
I have a long driveway and decided it was better to pay for snow removal. When you are paying you have two choices you can be on the list for every snow or the will call list. The will call lest gets done on the second or third day unless it is a big snows on back on back days and it could be next week. So sometimes I pay to have small amounts of snow plowed knowing it would melt in a few days in order to stay on the first day list.
With 26 acres to keep up you are going to want tractor and loader even if you decide not to plow yourself or not. It is no fun without a cab.
If you get a tractor will it have an out building to live in?
The 1950s tractors look like a lot of machine for very little money if you are smart enough not to kill yourself with it.
Walt.
Hi Walt,
The plan is to build a large detached garage which will house the tractor and our vehicle. This will also end up being my "shop" to fixing and building on the property.
Kris
If it’s just for snow removal and your driveway is only 340 feet a tractor seems overkill unless you routinely get more than 24 inches of snow at a time (defined as “before you can deal with it or it melts on its own”). A cheap self propelled two stage gas snowblower served me well in north central MN for 20 years. Having said that when we moved to the mountains we waited a half a winter to test the waters before making our tractor purchase and I wouldn’t be without it. I have an eight foot back blade and this year will be adding a 7 foot blower on the rear. I also use it for mowing in the summer, fixing the driveway (over a mile long), fencing, etc.
Just keep in mind no matter what that if you don’t get routine thaws, your snow banks can be a problem over a winter, which is the limitation of a “blade” whether front or rear mounted. But blowers stink at small snowfalls (on a gravel drive you will likely set the blower to ride an inch or two off the surface to keep you from flinging rocks), so if you go down the tractor route and get a lot of snow, you will likely need both or an alternative way of dealing with your “burms” through the winter.