Replacement for broken LED canless recessed lights
Hi all, I’m back at it in my attic. I have some 6″ LED “canless recessed” lights that are designed to spring fit into a hole in the ceiling drywall – one in my main bath, and about 9 in my kitchen. Unfortunately, many of them have failed in place – they either hard flicker at a high rate, or just don’t turn on. See attached for photo.
The fixtures each have a male connector that hooks up to a female connector to receive DC power from a driver (this is the driver https://www.aliexpress.com/i/2251832669876492.html?gatewayAdapt=4itemAdapt ). This driver was installed in a junction box in the attic.
I imagine the capacitors in the little driver have failed. They are $20 for ten, so not bad, but I’m thinking the summer temps in my attic (I’m in east TN) will just kill these units again after 5-10 years.
I thought this might be a good opportunity to review the lighting product choice, especially since I am probably losing some conditioned air to the interface between the fixture and the drywall cut.
I’m open to suggestions, with the following initial thoughts:
1. Is there a similar LED canless recessed replacement light that might be more reliable for SE US attic installation? The lights I have installed are not even branded, perhaps there are some known manufacturers that are more reliable?
2. Another thought is I could migrate away from this style completely, drywalling or OSBing over the existing 6″ holes on the attic side, and then installing a true ceiling flush mount panel light. Most of these seem to take AC 110V directly, which means the capacitors would be in my conditioned space, and last longer, and the thermal envelope would also be favorable. However, this would be a bigger project to tackle.
Thank you for your thoughts!
Eric
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Replies
My take on this was to install small retrofit GU10 bulb IC rated fixtures, and then use GU10 (zigbee, so automated bulbs) in them. Surface mount fixtures do die, and 5 years down the line what are chances of finding an exact match?
https://www.amazon.ca/Globe-Electric-Spotlight-Downlight-90734/dp/B00UIB9OQC
You can buy these in 10 packs so $20/fixture. Add in an IKEA Tradfri GU10 bulb and you have a fully controllable bulb (zigbee) light for under $30. This way I can do light scenes at night etc. to customize lighting for the time of day. Our entire home is motion triggered lighting, but for some areas, (theatre, kitchen) there are overrides as required.
The trick here is to build or buy a box/pot to go over these in your attic, and spray foam to seal the box so no insulation is in contact with the fixture. HUE makes a nice GU10 zigbee bulb as does IKEA Tradfri (cheaper)...but you can find GU10 "dumb" bulbs everywhere. This was a PITA for air sealing (we spray foamed 2" in the entire attic) , but I have peace of mind know that the bulbs are replaceable, and the attic wiring accessible for each fixture in the box. The fixture will more or less be insulated from attic heat as well, as it is in conditioned space.
I've used the same setup exactly for interior pots. So you still get a flush look pot, but the lights can be aimed which is a nice feature to show off interior features or adjust spot light levels.
If you go this route, make sure you air test (pull your house negative as possible) before the spray foam crew leaves the work site!! and test each one. I learned this the hard way. It's very easy to fix an issue during foaming...but not so if 30" of loose fill insulation is added over top, a week later.
I would stick to brand name units, much better chance of it lasting. I've made the mistake once to order some online special GU10s and ended replacing all within two years, not fun on a 24' ladder.
Brand name (ie Halo from box stores) slim LEDs won't fail that quickly even in an attic install. Keeping the insulation a bit off them does help in reducing temperature (one of those draft stop covers is the simplest) and the unit will last even longer.
I know that you are not looking to seal the air leakage from those units into the but you are looking to keep them cooler than the rest of the attic. I suggest reading this article if you have not already read somethign similar.
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/wiring/recessed-can-lights
Those fixtures I linked are IC rated and have thermal protection. They are CSA certified. Building your own attic boxes is a time suck, and will not have the fire rating of a box done like the mineral wool pot type. The round “pots” are a lot easier to spray foam/seal vs boxing in trusses. I have done fire rated boxes for theater lights and doing them right requires lining with 5/8 type X…use the mineral wool pots…
Regardless of what style you go with, a baseline for safety and reliability is to make sure you get equipment that is UL listed or listed by another NRTL such as ETL. The ones you linked are not listed by anybody and pose a very real risk of fire. A reputable brand is also a good idea.
UL doesn't require durability, but it does require that what it fails it doesn't take the whole house down with it. And there's some correlation, that if they did enough engineering to meet UL standards they may have generally done better engineering and made something that will last longer. For example, UL requires checking that nothing is operating at a temperature above its rating, which is both a safety consideration and a reliability consideration.
Hey all, appreciate all your responses. The GU10 fixtures are intriguing. I like that the AC-DC conversion stuff is in the bulb and not in the attic's heat/cold. Would need to find 6" versions, preferably white to match others.
I could see myself either going that route, or going with a similar style to what I have now, but gasketed on the lip of the interior portion. Either way, I'll probably also utilize the mineral wool pots for extra air leakage insurance/decrease exposure to high/low temps on the attic side.
I think I'm going to try to avoid installing J boxes, drywall patches, etc. just to avoid the extra labor for little return. I would have to do that for surface-mount styles, but I think I can get both reliability/maintainability and acceptable air leakage performance with the aforementioned solutions.
Thank you!
Eric
Well, Globe makes up to a 5" "recessed" style like what DennisWood posted, but not a 6". I'll keep looking around...
Charlie, I have a six pack left over of the GU10 (commercial electric ) boxes. They carry an ETL logo as well the Intertek. HD carries them here in Canada. The ones I linked to are CSA approved, so would pass inspection here.
Sippy, once you box the fixtures and spray foam from behind, yes..they become part of the conditioned space although will for sure run warmer. The swivel is not air sealed at all. Zigbee (or an GU10 LED) bulb carries the driver/electronics in the bulb. The HUE versions are bulletproof, but expensive. I would not use them unless automation is a thing for you.
One of the reasons I use the zigbee bulbs is that you dim them dynamically (or hold them off) based on ambient light from either a HUE motion sensor, or something like the Fibaro (which I also use). I've found that power use correlates something linearly with dimming percentage. Our kitchen lighting for example (about 90 watts) will run at less than half of that during the day, or after midnight (house goes to "night lighting mode"). I cut about 40% from our household power use with strategies like these.
You are correct that the high temperatures in your attic could be contributing to the failures. Here are some thoughts and suggestions that may help:
If you want to stick with the canless recessed lights, there are some well-known manufacturers that make more reliable products. For example, Lithonia Lighting, Halo, and Cree all have LED retrofit kits that are designed to be more durable and reliable. These kits are also rated for use in damp locations, which is important for bathroom and kitchen installations.
If you want to switch to a flush mount panel light, there are many options available that are designed to be installed directly into drywall or ceiling panels. These lights typically use an AC power source, which means they don't require a driver or capacitor. This can be a more reliable and longer-lasting solution. However, as you mentioned, this will be a bigger project to tackle, as you will need to cover the existing holes and install new lights.
Another option to consider is installing surface-mounted LED lights instead of recessed lights. Surface-mounted lights are designed to be mounted directly on the surface of the ceiling or wall, which makes them easier to install and maintain. There are many styles and sizes available, so you should be able to find something that suits your needs.
Finally, you may want to consider installing a ventilation fan in your attic to help reduce the temperature and humidity. This can help prolong the life of your LED lights and other electronics in the attic.
https://homelyitems.com/all-recessed-lights-not-working/ check this article.
I hope these suggestions are helpful!
If you have a ventilated attic a ventilation fan is not a good idea.
The purpose of ventilation in an attic is to allow moisture to escape. That moisture comes from the living area, through the ceiling. Mechanical ventilation creates negative pressure, which causes more air to come through the ceiling, bringing more moisture with it. It makes the problem that ventilation is designed to solve worse.
If your lights are rated for insulation contact, a much better solution is additional insulation against the heat of the attic.