Pretty Good Historic Double Hung….
We’re doing a DER on a house in a historic district and tying to balance performance with aesthetic appeal that will be tolerated by the local historic commission.
This is a house in the Boston area and so largely a heating zone.
Is there an ‘acceptable’ window that gets the obvious thumbs up from our community?
Marvin’s next generation double hung looks good and is available with a narrow 5/8th muntin.
I can’t find much information on its performance BUT as I begin to (quickly) research are there other specific products within other lines that should be considered.
They need to be a clad double hung and available ina FOUR over ONE muntin pattern.
Ideas?
It looks like Kolbe and Loewen get praise here but anything specific people would point us to for good performance, visual appeal AND bang for the buck?
Thanks
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My 30 year career (now retired) included custom manufacture of trad all-wood DHs AND selling Marvin's fine products as a dealer. Their Clad Marvin Next Gen DH has VERY good performance and durability and has been accepted in many jurisdictions as a historic replacement for all wood windows with very nice replication of components, including a narrow check rail and that very narrow muntin.
Having said that, the DHs are not available with triple glazing and all double hungs suffer from higher rates of air infiltration than casements. Some folks will order casements with a faux check rail supporting the muntin bars in the upper glazing to reach higher R-values. Just a thought or three.
I agree that Marvin is a good value, if they have what you want, and that mocking up the same configuration within a casement can be a great option. Picking some to make non operable saves money and air leakage.
Check out Zola. They have a great tilt n turn that looks like a double hung and passed historic district review for at least one project in Brooklyn. Not cheap, but top of the line Paaive House window.
Thanks for the responses so far. One other suggestion from a local supplier (not of Marvin) is to consider single hung instead of double hung.
1. More rigid
2. Less gasket
Is there any data that supports this argument?
Thanks!
What sort of "data" do you need?
With a single hung the upper sash doesn't slide-it's fixed, so there are 3 sides of one sash that no long need a gasketed air seal as it would with a double-hung. S
ince the fixed sash is mechanically attached to the head & side jambs, the rigidity of the sash stiles & rails imparts structural rigidity to the whole assembly, whereas a sliding sash does not.
This is the Zola. It has a fixed upper and TnT on the lower. They posted on their side, sorry.
Jonathan,
Is this article talking about Zola windows?
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/passive-house-windows-approved-philadelphia-historic-commission-blau
It's a really irritating article -- it mentions that the windows were approved by a historic commission, but the author of the article forgot to mention the brand of the window.
An often overlooked criteria to consider is the ability to clean the windows from inside the house. Some double hungs and, to my knowledge, single hung windows require cleaning from the exterior (think extension ladder for the second story). Faux DH casement and T&T windows, if acceptable, could afford the look, performance and cleanability.
How do the Zola units compare to Marvins in terms or price? I'm cognizant of Martin's other articles (and references) about the poor ROI from window investments.
I am a few weeks away from pricing out, but the architect from that job, who is also the owner of the brownstone and will be living there, said he used to spec out Marvins, but now he uses Zola and this is his 8th Passive House project. I spoke with the Zola CEO when they were doing an open house there and he gave me a ballpark figure of $17k for an 8' high, 10' wide, 2-panel slider lift and slide with a whole assembly value of R8. This door was really impressive. He said the upcharge to increase the width to a 16' would only be a couple of grand. If you give them a call, they should be able to price it out what you need pretty quickly.
What about their window pricing? I'm not looking for a sliding door ;-)
I have some Marvin TnT's in my house, double pane and they were not cheap, and my gut sense is that any of the European PH windows are going to price out very well against Marvin. But again, just contact them and they should be able to price it out quickly. Btw, they make a triple slider that you could use as an alternative to the Nana wall. Check out this video:
http://www.blog.zolawindows.com/video-of-zola-triple-lift-slide/
Thanks Jonathan but I'm not looking for a slider, I need folding doors.
I hear you.
Are there design restrictions? In our historic district, windows and brands need to be OK'd by the City. May want to check w/ them if so. Marvin's are typically approved, although perhaps w/o low-e glass.
I am meeting with the historical folks on Friday and will learn more. I do know they have a point of view on the windows and suspect that a radical departure from the existing fenestration will be met with resistance.
Martin,
I believe they are the Zola windows because one of the folks mentioned in the article is the owner of the Brownstone in Brooklyn. They are definitely not Marvin because in the comments section there is a post from a Marvin rep asking who makes the windows.
I agree that it is annoying that someone writes an article about windows and does not mention the manufacturer.
Zola makes one called a "breeze panel". We're in the design phase and have found the pricing to be very good, about double the performance of Marvin for the same money. Downside is lead times and shipping; unless you're doing a large order sharing a container is going to be your best bet.
Going to be looking at samples soon and deciding, but right now the value equation for our project is very compelling.
Two others to consider:
Gowercroft UK
Heirloom Windows (of Indiana)
Advantages:
Both use:
+Accoya wood sash material for good dimensional stability, sustainability, and better thermal insulation. It stains beautifully too.
+Rubber-type lip seals to achieve air infiltration levels below 0.06m3/m2/hr at 50Pa while sliding buttery smooth. Much better than wood-on-wood. Somewhat better than pile weatherstripping as new, but then pile weatherstripping doesn't age well whereas these seals last the life of the window.
+LandVac VIG (U-value ≤ 0.5 W/m².K yes that is not a typo!).
++Sash designs hide the metallic evacuation port plug in the bottom/top sash rails. (Note, you'll see some photos of pre-2020 designs that used older VIG glass technology from Pilkington called Spacia where the plug was too far from the perimeter of the unit to be hidden underneath the wood).
++LandVac VIG has sound attenuation matching laminated IGU glass and better than standard (non-laminated) IGU glass.
++A nice side-benefit even compared to other VIG glass, LandVac is tempered, which is code-required for certain historic buildings in earthquake zones.