Moving a Structural Pantry
youstina
| Posted in General Questions on
Im building my home and my contractor has added the pantry in the middle of the living room and he says it is important for support and already has duct and electrical wires on it , is there any suggestion to replace it, also the dry wall has been installed but i don’t have photos after the dry wall, i added another photo for the home plan, the pantry was supposed to be in the red circle but he moved it to the green dot, can it be replaced by column without moving the duct
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Replies
youstina,
Right now the walls of the pantry look like they are picking up structural loads. With a lot of backtracking those loads could be picked up in another way. That would be difficult, expensive, and time consuming, but possible.
How the structure ended up needing support in the middle of the living room when you didn't know it would occur is something to discuss with your contractor.
Unfortunately it's impossible to say from the photo. It appears that the triple LVL beam is continuous to the far wall. Who designed and engineered the structure? Was there a mechanical plan to deal with the ductwork? Was the project permitted?
Michael, I'm replying to you instead of youstina because I think you might be able to make this out in the photo. Yes, it does seem the beam continues to the far wall. The duct appears to come from the right then dip below the beam and back up to a floor register above. It looks to me like the real purpose of moving the pantry was to make a place to do that with the duct.
I think this may be an issue of the mechanical system designer not coordinating with the structural engineer. It may be the beam doesn't need support but the bad planning needs to be hidden by putting the ductwork in the pantry ceiling and making up a story to tell the client.
What do you think?
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JGSG, that's what I think I see as well. The structural unknowns are whether the triple LVL has been compromised and whether it is large enough for the load on it.
Thank you so much for your reply jolly , it is so detailed i believe that too , so is there any option without moving the duct
Don't worry about moving the duct. Don't worry about tearing up some drywall. Those are one-day jobs.
If the LVL -- the fat orangish beam -- isn't strong enough and needs to be supported, that's a real problem. The pantry as built is not a proper support for it. Just adding a post is not a proper support. A proper support won't rest on the concrete floor, which is probably no more than 4" thick, a proper support is going to rest on a concrete pad that is at least 8" thick.
If the reason that the LVL needs support is that it was cut, that's a real problem. It's not unfixable but it needs to be fixed, which means taking that LVL out and putting in a replacement.
If the LVL wasn't cut, and the real issue is that the contractor couldn't figure out how to run the duct with the LVL there, you need to scold the contractor for not being upfront with you. And then you need to figure out if there is a more acceptable way of running the duct.
At the end of the day, this isn't a construction issue, it's a people issue.
Thank you so much i believe your second opinion because there is no cut in the LVL , this the photo before installing the ducts and the pantry
Youstina, the other commenters have covered all the bases. Glad I could help as well. DC's suggestion to get to the bottom of this with the contractor is definitely what needs to happen now.
i added another photo for the home, the pantry was supposed to be in the red circle but he moved it to the green dot, can it be replaced by column without moving the duct
It's still impossible to say without knowing more about the project, but if the real reason for the design change is to allow for ductwork, it might be possible to have a lowered section of ceiling in that area instead of the full pantry. Or there may be other solutions but it depends on the questions I asked above.
Thank you, sure all the permits and inspection has been approved, and can you add load bearing column to that drop ceiling
We all seem to agree that your contractor might not be telling you the whole truth and that a column may not be necessary at all. Have you found them to be generally honest? It seems very unfortunate to have a column there and it should be possible to do without the column, but if the beam is undersized or was cut into for the HVAC, the alternative may be to replace the entire beam.
We can ask questions and give advice, but the internet is not a substitute for having someone knowledgeable on site looking at your situation.
Thank you all
When I read the title my first thought was not again the owner wants to remove a support under a beam but I could not be more wrong!
The way I read the plans the house was designed without that support and for some undisclosed reason the builder took it upon himself to add it without your permission.
The undisclosed reasons could be.
1 The builder substituted a smaller less costly beam than the plans call for.
2 The house plans had no HVAC design details and the lowest cost way to install the needed ductwork made this change necessary.
I say stick to your guns and insist he build what is shown in the plan! All you are asking for is what he agreed to build in your contract.
I think the post is awkward and ugly and if you let him force this change on you, you will be kick yourself every you live in this house.
Walta
Thank you for understanding but the dry wall already installed so im looking for another way without moving the duct
The duct in picture can easily be moved to the right side of LVL and mounted in ceiling.
Two feet away from where it is now.
But who cares about the duct?
If the LVL was cut by a mechanical professional, get them to pay for fixing it.
And that "structural" closet would not pass inspection in my parts. A single 2x4 under the LVL?!!
5stud,
I also wonder what it bears on below?
He says it bear the second floor but i cannot believe that too , the home frame was done without it as you see in this picture and the home plans approved without it and later the foundation inspection passed recently, unfortunately cannot move the duct now because the drywall is done
youstina,
Malcolm is talking about what support in the floor below.
You make it sound like drywall is so precious. It isn't.
I would shut down the site until this is dealt with.
There is no footing below at all, it was just added after the framing is done
Don't accept that the drywall has already been done. It can be redone. If the contractor did this on his own, it's his fault.
What sucks is it will push back the construction schedule. But take a breath and remember that you will live in this house a long time, a few weeks or a month of delay now seems big but in the future will seem like nothing.
By the looks of it, the closet can - probably - be physically moved. It has a lot to do with your relationship with the builder. It's one thing if you hired the framer, totally another if you are buying a house owned by the builder at this point. And on your agreement with him and who has final say on the final plan details. If he works for you, you have final control. Or he may be trying to placate you and there are other reasons for the move. IF that's the case, talk to the guy at the top.
To echo what others have said, that little wall doesn't really look like proper support for such a beefy beam. When using a wooden column to support a laminated (multiple sistered members) beam, the column is typically made the same thickness as the beam, so that the ENTIRE underside of the beam in the cross section of the column is supported. It looks like there is just a single stud under that triple beam, and it's not even lined up directly under the beam. That's a red flag for this, especially if it was added and not on the original plans.
The other issue is what is supporting the BOTTOM of that little wall? Support for a beam like that has to be carried down all the way to the foundation in most cases, or sometimes to another beam in the lower level (which will almost surely need an engineer's approval). If the column sits on the slab, it's common to put a pier there to support the column and not just rely on the slab itself for support.
If you had an engineer involved in this project, I'd consult with that engineer. This should be a pretty simple consult since the engineering for the beam should have already been done. The engineer should be easily to tell you if that extra support is needed or not, and if it's needed, if it's built and installed correctly for the expected loads involved. If the extra support isn't needed at all, the engineer can tell you that too, and should also be able to help if some inspector told your contractor to add the "extra support" that the engineer says isn't necassary.
Bill
@youstina,
Can you post the structural drawings?
Basically, something happened that wasn't planned for.
All contactors involved need to build to the agreed upon plans of the contract. It's why their called contractors. When there is an issue identified, it should be clearly communicated and have an agreed upon change with the parties involved; This didn't happen.
Now, to make a drastic change without your consent leads me to expect something is being hidden. And I doubt its just because of some flex duct.
In real talk:
Either stop all work to Figure it out
Or
Let it go and hope for the best.
It's your call to make.
Jamie
Thank you all for these information and your time to explain it to me, really appreciate it, i attached the home plans i have
youstina,
It's a good looking house. Those two upper floor bedrooms are massive!
One question - On the main floor, I don't see the 9 foot long 2x6 wall in your photos.
Is it built?
Keep everyone updated on how everything turns out and best wishes :)
Ask the contractor for the stamped structural design drawing set.
Because if a non-structural pantry is not on that set of drawings, then it's a pretty shut cause.
Probably should ask for the mechanical drawing set too.
Ultimately, the drawings don't show the pantry in that location where it currently stands. Therefore, it's a mistake and should be rectified. Hopefully you have a 20% holdback.
You need to have a real talk with your contractor.
These are already the plans that are approved by the codes and building department in my county without this pantry and the house framing inspection already passed and they are so strict here in nashville TN
Yes the 9 foot wall and all the other walls are built , this pantry was the only change, really appreciate your help , i will update it once it is solved
Do you have any photos from this angle? It would help if we could see what is happening with the ducts on the left side of the orange beam.
Wow,
That is a good catch. Certainly look like big holes in joists. I have a real love/hate for dimensional joists!
I believe those are either flexible ducts or duct elbows turning up into what looks on the plans to be an attic space. I wonder if the furnace will be up there and those are the supply and return for the bedroom wing. If so, the ducts had to go under the LVL beam somehow. But I don't see why they couldn't have been placed in a soffit/dropped ceiling. The builder might have notched the LVL to keep the ductwork as high as possible, leading to the need for structural support. Those are all guesses but I know how things go on construction sites.
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So now you cannot walk from the kitchen to the dining room?
Demand it be removed
When you become obstinate about it, the truth with come out
HVAC cut a huge hole in something is my bet.
Hopefully just the joists, but if it is the glulam, that is going to be expensive for them to fix
Agreed. Drywall is cheap. It's time to have enough removed to tell the whole story.
It only gets more expensive from here in: the sooner the better.
To be clear, if they cut the glulam, it should come out.
Sheetrock off
pantry out.
temporary supports
remove every joist hanger
cut the beam to pieces
siding may have to come off to slide new beam in
this is a huge deal, but if this is the case it must be done
Probably pay an engineer to have a plan to remove and reinstall.
The contractor will fight fight fight to not do it.
Although the HVAC contractor's insurance should pay
There may be ways around it. but it should be on your terms
You made no mistakes here, you are supposed to get a house per your plans
For instance if that 9 foot wall is under the beam, it could perhaps become structural.
And the doorway to the laundry closet becomes structural
After an engineer says so
I found those pictures before the drywall, there in no cut into the beam, there are two ducts run under the beam ,one located in the pantry and one goes to the dining area, i will try to see if we can just leave the drop ceiling to cover the duct and wire works and remove the rest of the walls, wish me luck and thank you all
Okay, they come from above. Between joists.
But the closet seems to think it is load bearing with the header over door.
If it makes you feel any better, I can count on one hand how many ducting issues did not interfere with plans. Plans have to include mechanical chases and bulkheads imo
There is no reason for anything but a ceiling grill
"Change nothing on my plans without written approval, my house not yours"
"remove that stupid pantry"
The laundry closet is also built as 'structural' but that is probably habit
Hello all, just wanted to update , i reached the framing inspector who gave the approval and he told me it is not load bearing and it can be removed, thank you all
Great news! Stick to your guns. Keep an eye out going forward. They shouldn't be changing the floor plan drastically like that without getting your approval.
Great!
That's great! Looking at the floor plans again, it looks like the ductwork could go through the floor of the closet at Bedroom 3 to get into the floor framing. You could give up a bit of closet space but you would not have to drop the ceiling on the first floor.