Newly Installed Shingles Blown Off
Hi all – seeking advice on shingles blowing off from new construction.
We are building a new house in NE Iowa. The roof shingles started going on October 12th. But framing contractor which also installed the roof, completed the shingling job in three different phases, with days apart from each other.
Since installation, there has been gusty winds 40mph in which we have lost large sections of shingles. Both the GC and roofing contractor believe there should have been enough time to seal. The roofing contractor fixed one spot originally but now will charge for each additional repair. The GC says I need to work out claim with the shingle manufacture.
I have a claim in with the shingle manufacture and our home owners insurance. The shingles are Atlas Pinnacle Prestine.
I have attached pictures to show the damage and installation differences noticed on a wet roof. Damage is on North, East, and West facing surfaces.
1. Have others experienced this much damage shortly after installation with gusty winds during late fall/winter months now.
2. Can shingles not stand up to this wind until sealed/bonded, even though they have over 100 mph warranty.
3. Could it be bad installation or due to the fact it wasn’t completed all in one day that dust/dirt getting on the roof cause weak points.
4. Should the GC or roofing contractor be liable for the repair, or is it solely a homeowners issue. Neither gave us any warning of this type of problem that could arise prior to start of building or start of roofing. Our GC said no one in our area would hand seal each shingle which Altas states is required in cooler weather. Also states that other contractors in our area are still roofing in the winter without hand sealing.
Thank you in advance… I don’t want things to get ugly between parties but I don’t believe us as homeowners are responsible for this large repair expense we are facing.
Best regards,
Brett
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Replies
If your shingles are looking like that it's doubtful they were installed correctly. That nail spacing in figure three looks pretty scant.
All shingle manufacturers have documents that outline their installation method. It would be very easy to verify if it was followed or not. In that case the installer is on the hook for not installing it properly and should bear the cost of replacement.
Thanks Kyle for your input... I do know that some, not all of the nail placement of the shingles that I have collected are outside of the sweet spot per manufacture specs. I would not expect this to cause complete failure, but perhaps a contributing factor. I have saved all shingles that have blown off if needed to help make any cases.
Millions of roofs across sustain 40 mph winds without damage. Yours is defective either by install or by product. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
And really there's only two reasons why the install could be the problem: either they weren't nailed properly (spacing, placement of nails) or the sheathing they were nailed into didn't hold.
I guess it could also be they used the wrong nails.
Does this go for shingles that are not yet bonded? I have had another rental property roof done with OC shingles that have the extra nylon strip for the sure nail that is supposed to help with pull out force.
I haven't seen a properly installed shingle, where the overlap is correct, and correct nailing pattern used, ever blow off like that. It doesn't even look like those shingles are nailed to be honest. A shingle that's nailed with a low wind speed pattern (4 nails per shingle) will have 8 nails total, because of the overlap. 8 nails ought to hold it in place in my opinion, otherwise we'd see eight nail heads with a little bit of shingle material below them.
That wont happen if they nail high above the line, each shingle would then only have four nails holding it on, and in that scenario I think it would be likely that they'd be able to blow free.
Are there any Builders License requirements in IA? We licensed builders here in MN contribute to a recovery fund for just this type occurrence. Homeowners can be compensated for bad building practices and with enough grievances the builder will have their license suspended.
Kyle, thank you for this information... A shingle that's nailed with a low wind speed pattern (4 nails per shingle) will have 8 nails total, because of the overlap. I have definitely seen shingles that have blown off without a top nail hole/holes.
40 mph is a moderate breeze around here. Are the nails installed in the correct location? If they are installed too high on the shingle, which is very easy to do if you're going fast, the nail won't go through the second layer of shingles and will likely punch at least partially through the top shingle.
The nails are intact in the sheathing yet that I can see, its new 1/2in osb... all shingles appear to be pulled through nail.
Are the nails in the correct location on the shingle? Every brand has a slightly different system for showing where that location is, and I'm not familiar with your brand, but the nails should be located to go through the layer of shingles below. The installation instructions (and the wrapper on every bundle) should show where the nails are supposed to go.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "all shingles appear to be pulled through nail." Can you clarify?
Sounds like overdriven nails, so install error. This is common enough problem if the pressure is set too high or the nail depth on the gun is not adjusted properly.
Akos has it right, too much air pressure. The roofers these days don't seem to know what a pressure regulator is for an air compressor. There is an exact correct pressure for each type nailer and hose length. Also, the nails need to be in the double laminate area if it's an architectural shingle, usually only about a 3/4" wide strip.
It's strange that Brett won't answer the question of whether the shingles were nailed properly. The entire argument hinges on the answer. If they were nailed properly, which is easy to verify, then it's likely a manufacturer issue. If they were not nailed properly, which we all agree is very likely but impossible to tell from the photos provided, then it's an installation problem.
I've been hearing complaints about roofers and their nailgun settings for 30+ years, yet that's still how most roofs are installed.
Hi Michael, sorry it's hard to follow all the different replies in the thread. From what I have seen, some nails, are not in the sweet spot, 6-7.5 inch of the shingle. Again, some are some are not, some shingles that have blown off to the ground are all good nail placement... some shingles may have 2 or 3 nails that have missed the correct nailing location per mfg spec. Whether they are over driven I cannot tell... I have not been on the roof, only looking at it from ladder on the ground (bad heights experience). What I have seen from the shingles, the shingles have pulled through the nail, either a nail head size hole or a larger circular tear. I have yet to see a nail pulled out.
Seems to you need to decide who you want to fight with. Collect and retain as many of the failed shingles as possible If more that 10% show signs of improper nail placement fight with the contractor, if not you can try the manufacture but the last time I looked the manufactures warranty only covered materials leaving you on the hook for the labor.
Note the “glue” that bonds the shingles together is heat activated darker roofs will melt the glue at lower temps but until a new roof gets over 90°, I think of them as being tender and susceptible to wind damage until they get hot.
Walta
Not a lawyer, but...
There is a concept in the law called "privity." It basically means having a contractual relationship with someone. In a typical house build, the homeowner only has a contractual relationship with the GC. Unless you hired the sub and paid the sub, you don't have a relationship with the sub. Unless you bought the shingles you don't have a contractual relationship with the seller or manufacturer of the shingles.* Your contract with the GC was to put a roof that was suitable on the house. He failed at that. His obligation is to fix it or give you your money back. The fact that it's unclear whether the sub or the shingles are to blame is his problem, not yours. He hired the sub, he bought the shingles. As a point of law, the only party you can sue is the GC.
*(I realize that manufacturers extend warranties to the homeowner. But the warranties are weaker than the protections under consumer protection laws, which say that an item sold must be suitable for the purpose for which it is sold. Those protections apply to the purchaser. Which is the sub, not the homeowner.)
Yes, the unfortunate part is that I bought the shingles at big box store. This is why I think its and easy out for GC to blame the shingles and not anything else.
Which he uses the same brand on his personal house he built, but since I did not buy through him or the lumber yard its now my issue.
OK, that changes things. So it really is on you to determine whether it was an installation flaw or a product flaw.
The shingles will have installation instructions on every package. Read them. Do they say anything about limiting exposure to wind until they've had a chance to seal?
I'm still thinking they weren't nailed on right.
Walta... these were black shingles, I understand they need to bond to get to the full protection, but is it that every shingled house has to be roofed in 70-90 degree weather and not have 40mph wind hit it during this time for it to bond.
I'd say your next communication with the GC should be through a lawyer.
From what you've written here, he's not the type of GC who is prepared to resolve this problem in a fair and prompt manner. So a lawyer is probably necessary.
I don't have experience with this but I'm wondering if an independent home inspection service should be brought in by the homeowner to look at the roof more closely. That would be my first question for the lawyer. The homeowner shouldn't be relying on his own knowledge to make that determination. He is not an expert in the subject.
I think lawyering up is a mistake. My guess is the layers bill would be more than a new roof several times over.
Try having the GC show the sub shingles that were clearly miss nailed and convince him to remove and reinstall new shingles that you agree to pay for the new materials.
You need to find a way to be on the same side of the argument as the GC! This house is a long way from completion there will be more struggles ahead and if you and your GC become adversaries it will become more and more difficult to finish the house.
If you can't make a deal happen suck it up pay for the new roof and keep the project on track. The last thing you want to do is fire the GC and try to replace him.
Let this be a lesson you are paying the GC to run this job if you had not gotten in the middle and purchased the materials this mess would be the GC to clean up.
Walta
I agree that lawyers make things more complicated, but this GC needs to understand that he can't think he's handing over the keys to a broken house from day 1. It was his choice to install the roof when he did. Even if it were installed perfectly (it was not), he can't hand over a brand new house with a broken roof.
GBA is a forum about high performance construction. It bothers me how often this forum has been distracted by politics, greenwashing, advertising and people seeking soft legal advise for issues that arise on their own projects due to poor planning.
If the homeowner is playing the role of GC to save a few bucks from the GC's point of view its like bringing a pound of ground beef to a restaurant and handing it to the chef to cook it for you.
The GC is in the wrong for doing the roof install with materials he didn't purchase, he should have been aware of the possibility of future complications from experience. The homeowner playing GC is in the wrong for not hiring his own labor to do the roof install.
The reason the homeowner didn't hire the GC to handle labor and materials for the roof is the homeowner didn't like the price. To the homeowner playing GC, the reason you didn't like the price is it covers issues like these in advance, whether it be in a week or a year. This margin gives the contractor the ability to provide a warranty regardless of faulty materials or poor workmanship. By playing GC, the homeowner opted out of this warranty service.
Capecodhaus - I respectfully disagree... I am not looking for legal advise. I am asking if others have had similar experiences with shingles not holding up in 40 mph without bonding. How many roofs are installed in not perfect conditions that face adverse weather before fully bonding? There are no plans to lawyer up... if there is no satisfactory resolution between, GC, roofing contractor, shingle manufacture, or insurance, we will just cut ties on the contract and us the saved GC fee to fix the roof. At this point, there is no hurry to finish the house.
Lastly, as I said the GC has used same brand of shingle on his own personal house he built just months before. So, if the GC, or roofing contractor had issues with that brand of shingle or concerns of time of year for installation, they should have clearly expressed it, or not put the roof on. Only issue is now that another party is involved, me. Likely the case would have happened as well with lumber yard product that is a comparable product, unless manufacture deems it faulty product. If it was same blow issue but shingles from GCs preferred lumber yard, it would be complete different, it would be fix it right now and no charge to me.
Also are you saying that every single material in home build needs to come from GC and there partnered lumberyard or supply store. I was able to save 50% on drywall by not going through lumberyard, and had it ordered from big box store where we got bulk discount and military discount, and did the leg work to get it scattered in the house. Exact same product, so if issue with drywall its now my fault.
GBA is an amazing resource, I used this site extensively prior to build, to look for best practices and see what top GCs are doing in all different aspects of the build. Some were implemented some more I wish were, but can't hand hold the GC or each sub along the way to make sure they are following GBA best practices. It a good thing we are building on our existing home site, so I can do the small details recommended that subs didnt do, and GC says its extra labor. There is not a top tier GBA expert in every part of the country nor can everyone afford one. We are happy with our GC, getting the job done, like his previous work, but some of these issues arising along the way, and some things I would do differently based on advise from here.
The short of it is, what's your contract say?
If you continue to purchase materials and provide them to the GC's subs to save yourself money thats fine, but this arrangement needed to be agreed upon between all parties and in writing. I can't imagine a builder would say "sure you can purchase everything we'll just do the labor" unless the builder was broke and desperate for work.
All too often, when homeowners get involved with managing labor and/or materials the outcome that results are similar to what you experienced. Common problems are purchasing incorrect materials, forgetting to order materials, delaying contractors schedules when materials don't arrive on time or when they arrive damaged. Not to mention other annoyances like when a subcontractor hired by the homeowner circumvent pulling a permit and jump onto a permit pulled by the GC or do work that doesn't meet the building code and causes failed inspections which cause delay in other trades schedules, or subcontractors without proper insurance or simply lack specific liability that cause damage to a project or materials where fault lies somewhere between both parties.
Fyi: Being the middle man sucks, even when things go smoothly and you get paid promptly.
This scares me to death. My contractor has quoted me builder grade windows. He gets materials plus 15%. Different windows and doors I have researched and want will be about $80K. I can order them directly from the manufacturer and save $12K. (15% of $80K). If the GC installs them incorrectly, you're saying that's on me? Doesn't sound right.
I get that the GC's will stand behind their products when they supply them and make their percentage of profit, but in the case of failed installation by the GC and his sub the fault should lie with them. They could've just refused to install the product.
Nick, whatever you decide to do get it in writing and signed by both parties if not clearly expressed in your contract. It seems like an easy out, I didn't purchase it, not my problem.
Before you decide to “cut ties” with your GC do yourself a favor and read the contract you signed it was written by your contractors lawyers for his advantage. My guess says the GC gets paid in full if you break the contract and you pay his legal fees. My guess is the GC has been around the block and he will make more money for less work if you fire him.
It is unfortunate that it happened and likely to cost you a few thousand dollars my guess is this amount of money will not break you and it is a small percentage of the total. Consider adjusting your attitude.
Walta
1. The shingle mfg has a technical rep. Get them out there. You may need to pay $200-$500 for a WRITTEN report, but they will make a site visit and may even write a report at no cost. You might need to make a formal claim on defective shingles to get them there, but I would start the friendly way with the tech svs department and the local rep. You want to ask them to help you understand if these are defective shingles or if there is an issue with the install. There is a high probability their report will put the blame squarely on the install, which in this case, based on the limited info we have, is probably correct. Get the report and give it to the GC. In this case you are probably better off than if the roofer had purchased the shingles - the mfg often does not want to formally issue findings that find their customer at fault - and the roofer is their customer. But since you bought the shingles....
2. The GC is obligated to install per code. Code requires the installer to follow the mfg written directions. The GC simply saying "we don't do it that way around here" is b----. Code is the bare legal minimum. Does your contract require the GC to install per code?
3. If you bought the materials, but the GC provided the labor via his sub, there MIGHT be an issue of who has to pay for the replacement materials. My guess is the roofing mfg inspection is going to call for all the shingles to be removed and reinstalled. The GC might say GC and GC subs are only responsible for labor, and you need to pay for replacement shingles. Read your contract - might or might not be true.
4. If you end up re-roofing, which is probably the right answer, hire an independent third party roofing inspector who knows what they are doing to inspect during the application of the new shingles.
Thank you 5946022 for your constructive advise... all good points. I do have a claim in with the mfg so will see what they say, and I will ask to have a technical rep come look once the new snow melts to help determine next steps. I am also looking to get a 3rd party roofer out, but everyone is so busy and not committing to any dates. Regards
Brett - I did not suggest a 3rd party roofer. They are competitors to the installing roofer - of course a 3rd party roofer will say it is done wrong.
My suggestion was a 3rd party roofing inspector. Should have clarified those are independent firms, do only roofing inspections and NOT installs, and do inspections on any brand roof (so not tied to a particular mfg). Most construction materials testing companies have a waterproofing division with a certified 3rd party inspector; if not, look for waterproofing consultants.
And in regards to the discussion above regarding who is responsible if you buy the materials and GC installs - the only thing that matters is YOUR CONTRACT. What does it say?
Gotcha, we are in a rural town, and I called nearby(1 hr) home inspection company, and they don't do specific roof inspections... and they didn't know in the geographical region. So we are limited here to our services. A reptuable roofing contractor will probably be only option.
Re: CONTRACT - It states, if homeowners provisions any materials they are responsible for the materials. It also states that sub contractors are responsible for workmanship. So I guess it just gets into who can point the biggest finger... mfg: shingles tested per spec no issue... roofer: they are installed just fine. shouldn't it now by the GC to help come to a resolution? And no where in the contract does it say weather can impact performance of materials or quality of work... so whose that one on?
The part about the subcontractors is not a legally binding contract unless the subcontractors have signed the contract too.
DC - well if that is the case... that is pretty shady. The GC has subbed everything out to date except for some tile lines install and some blocking work.
You do not want a "home inspector." Please read my reply above carefully.
You want a construction materials testing company with a waterproofing division, or a waterproofing consultant. They are around. One of the big national firms has an office in Rochester, MN with that specialty, and an office in Cedar Falls (may or may not have waterproofing consultants on the local staff). Even if you don't go with them, ask if they know a residential roofing inspector. Heck, ask a local insurance broker if they know one. But before you go that route...
RE: Contract - your agreement is with the GC. READ IT.
The GC might make the subs responsible for workmanship, but the GC is responsible for getting the acceptable workmanship out of the subs and delivering it to you. You have no contract with the subs. Otherwise why is the GC in the mix? Of course the roofer and GC will state the products are installed just fine. But if the mfg does not agree, and puts it in writing, the GC (or sub if GC assigns this to the sub) need to respond. It is on the GC to properly schedule the subs so that materials are installed in weather that meets with the mfg requirements.
Also, why do you have a claim in with your Homeowner's insurance? Are you already living there? Typically, any claim during construction is via the Builders Risk insurance. Who carries the BR - you or the builder? If the builder, get a copy of the policy (if you are financing, this is easy to get - bank needs a copy) and tell builder if builder does not PROPERLY fix the roof (as verified by a 3rd party inspector) you will put in a claim on their BR policy. That ought to get their attention.
In this business, DETAILS are important. Needs to start with you.
Also - it is not shady for the GC to sub everything out; that is normal. It is not shady for the GC to make the sub responsible for the workmanship of what they do. It is normal. But your agreement is with the GC. And part of the GC's job is to make sure the sub's workmanship is proper. Read your contract (although admittedly contracts that builders present are extremely one sided favoring the builder).
If you don't get anywhere with the roofing mfg or an independent 3rd party waterproofing or roofing consultant, you can always try to get the building dept on your side and try to get them to force the GC to remove the roof. This can backfire in many ways though. First, once you start it, regardless of whether you are successful, GC will determine you have declared war. Nothing good comes of that. And the building official might side with the GC - that whole thing about who they have to work with again, etc. Depends upon how knowledgeable building official is, how ethical they are, how detailed they are, how much effort they are willing to put in, and how you present it.
And lastly, money talks. Do not pay the GC for the roof. If you have already done so, withhold the cost from your next payment. Some owners would even withhold the cost of the roof install labor, plus cost to remove shingles, plus cost of replacement shingles. Even if the contract says you are responsible for materials, there is something in there about responsibility for negligence.
I'm not a professional in the building trades, but attempted to start building houses ' for fun :-) after retirement. Quit trying that after contractors would not do quality work. Couldn't sell a house that had known workmanship issues.
I've read the comments, and didn't see anyone mentioning that pictures do not show any underlayment. If that is true, my thinking is too much emphasis was placed on ' roof cost ' and not quality of material and labor. Also, without underlayment wouldn't the wind possibly come up under the shingles a little bit to help loosen them ( if house not closed in completely )? My guess is it is a combination of things: (1.) Atlas saying 4 nails is sufficient. to me that is only true if all conditions are met, and provides them a marketing point (2.) No underlayment (3.) Careless nailing resulting in both layers not penetrated. (4.) Not high enough temperature to bond adhesive.
Sorry if I've overlooked something, but willing to learn how I'm wrong.
You are correct Texas I don’t see the required tar paper underlayment either!
If this is the type of crap work the GC is allowing, he should be fired.
The lack of underlayment makes me wounder what other corners he allowed to be cut.
In fact, I think paying 2k for a private inspection would be money well spent. No, I am not talking about the “home inspector’s” the realtors have you hire before you buy a house whose job is to extract money from the sellers without killing and sales. Finding the correct inspector will not be easy.
Did the city/county inspect this house?
Yes I have changed my position 180°.
Walta
Isn't the reddish pink stuff the underlayment? That and light blue are the typical synthetic underlayment colors around here.
And if they use the Zip Roof sheathing, which is a dark red, underlayment is not needed.
The main question is, have the shingles been installed incorrectly. Most likely the shingles were nailed to high. With architectural shingles the nails should be driven thru the overlapped area on the shingle. The nail should also penetrate the top edge of the shingle below. Each of the shingles that have blown off should have 8 holes thru the shingle. Four at the built-up area and 4 at the top edge of the shingle. The installation instructions will show exactly where the shingle should be nailed. In high wind areas 6 nails should be used. Have a discussion with the GC and show him that the shingles were installed incorrectly and let him solve the problem. Have the GC there when the manufactures rep shows up.
Don't know which city is nearby, but a google search with " home construction forensics Iowa " would show several credentialed individuals that could probably do the work. Price depending on how thorough most likely.
Sad to see such work.