NanaWall……$$$….Marvin $$$? / Panoramic Door$?
I’ve been looking at a configuration for a 12′ wide opening that we’d like to make into a glass wall.
Nana is the brand everyone is familiar with but preliminary pricing is running $1300 a linear foor PLUS a substantial installation charge (they will actually discount the doors by 10% to ‘help’ with installation cost (!)
Marvin has their new Scenic Door system
There are other suppliers such as Panoramicdoors DOT com that offer products at a significantly lower price (50%) but I can only find limited feedback and some (Yelp) reviews are not positive
All of these systems will require substantial structural changes (require L/720)
Q1. What creative options have you come up with to allow a folding wall system that does not involve selling a kidney.
Q2. Any feedback on the aforementioned products?
Thanks!
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Replies
Edward,
Since you have chosen to post your question on a green building web site, I'll give you the green building answer: most green builders strive to create a building envelope that is very well insulated and that has a low level of air leakage. "Folding wall systems" made up of movable panes of glass are not compatible with these green goals, because systems like the NanaWall system leak a lot of air and have a low R-value (that is, a high U-factor).
Of course, maybe you want one of these systems in spite of the thermal disadvantages. If so, go ahead -- it's your house. But the house won't be very energy-efficient.
Thanks Martin. We are planning to make the house energy efficient.
The idea about the Nanawall actually came from this site ;-)
There was an article here a year or so ago about Nanawall being the first folding wall company to be Passive House certified. A quick google supported my (poor) recollection
http://www.nanawall.com/applications/cold-weather-climates
Thoughts in that case?
Edward,
Oops. I should have done a little research instead of relying on my (faulty) memory. I guess the air leakage through these units isn't as bad as I thought. Sorry for the bad advice.
Martin. I managed to find the (VERY) detailed testing of the Nanawall Passive House certified glass wall.
https://www.nanawall.com/files/binder/wa67-binder.pdf
1. Does anyone have specs for the Marvin's
2. How do they compare as a result in performance
3. Is the ROI worth it? (Marvin is about $900 a linear, Nana about 50% more)
A lot of your pricing depends on size, top hung or bottom rollers, materials, etc., and you better design overhangs for protection. We've used Anderson, Pella, Sierra Pacific, JELD-WEN, and Marvin, and all these clad doors are pretty much between $1000-1300. Door Innovations from Houston have more reasonably priced clad doors, but they also have vinyl doors, which are more reasonable, but have more limitations. With all folding doors, the only way to screen them is to install Phantom screens on the inside, that gets pretty pricy too.
FWIW, a good affordable option to all of these folding doors are 4 and 6 panel sliders, and we use those quite a bit.
Just to check--to you need the whole thing to be openable, or would a single door with a fixed glass wall be of interest?
Need the whole thing to be openable. We're trying to avoid the creation of an external porch by making the wall removable.
To the point of Armando - we are interested in the folding and not sliding doors as the seal appears to be much better. The big question is how well the Marvin will perform. It's likely to be less expensive than the Nanawall and if performance is "pretty good" then it might be a good choice.
I have a Marvin Bi-Fold door between dining room and sun room (porch). Pictures of the door opened and closed attached. (Kinda cloudy today, and I am not a great photographer.)
Comments:
*It's the biggest air leak in the house, but even with it we were at .9 ACH50 at our last blower door test. The good thing is that the sun room acts as a giant storm window. (Someday we are going to do another blower door test; the last go round we didn't know that it was allowable to seal off the HRV inlet and exhaust openings.)
*It has the ADA threshold, for seamless transition between rooms, but also more tricky to install and keep sealed.
*It needed some adjustment and added weatherstripping etc. Marvin's field tech did wonders with it.
*The door hardware required some magic with Loctite to keep from loosening, the strike plate had to be milled at a local machine shop to work correctly, and this spring I had to shim out the strike plate to get it to lock. (I use the right "man door" leaf daily.)
*Yes the door is covered per Armando's concerns, however the sun room glass is high enough that we get ample winter sun through the door. (The door has Cardinal LoE-179 passive solar glass.)
*I did not have the adjacent wall space for any other folding or sliding wall door scenario; this was the only way to open up the whole wall.
*It took four men and a Lull to set the door, it's 8' tall x 9' wide.
Andrew, Very helpful and the product looks great.
When did you have the installed? (have they ironed out the kinks since you had this one installed?)
Edward, the Marvin Bi-Fold door went in almost exactly three years ago, found a pix. BTW, I stand corrected, it took five men.
I do not know what process improvements Marvin has made since our door was built. (I think we have a somewhat early unit.)
Intus has a folding door product. It's not on the website but is in the catalog. I have one of the companies front doors, and it is built like a tank. I imagine cost would be very competitive. My experience with Marvin windows was not particularly positive--especially when the company unilaterally voided warranties for all windows installed in EFIS-clad homes.
Steve, Does Marvin still not support warranties for houses with exterior foam? I was planning that approach for this envelope.
Intus and many other companies also offer lift-and-slide and/or tilt-and-slide doors. I have not done the research to compare their air seal to that of folding doors, but they are drastically tighter than regular sliders and worth a look if you haven't already checked them out.
You might want to give them a call as Intus stopped selling for residential products as of 2018. They have switched to commercial. Large ($50,000) projects are probably still OK but small orders like this might be tough with the shipping costs.
@Edward. If you plan to use exterior foam for insulation, I would check with Marvin before purchasing its windows. The issue with EIFS was improper installation, which potentially allowed bulk water into walls and potentially turned wood framing (and wood windows) to mush. I had zero moisture issues with my house, but the performance of Marvin's all-wood windows left a lot to be desired.
Intus windows are very good, BTW. You also might want to check out Andersen's 100 series. That's what I installed on my new house. (But I would have selected Intus if I had known about them earlier in the build process.
Edward, did you end up comparing the Marvin Scenic Door with the Nanawall? I worked on a job with a Nanawall and it seemed more like $$$$$ than $$$, but it was for two large openings and all the bells and whistles. Did you find any other alternatives? Which system did you end up going with?
Hi, This is Ebrahim Nana from Nana Wall Systems.
The comment, " preliminary pricing is running $1300 a linear foot" is quite misleading. This price only applies to a unit designed to meet Passive House standards, with triple glazing, with additional foam between the wood and aluminum cladding, with special gasketing and weather stripping, etc.
An example pricing guideline for our more versatile, residential, folding, thermally broken aluminum system, SL60 with 50 standard color options, choice of standard inswing or outswing, top-hung or floor supported, with argon filled Low-E insulated glazing, starts from $700 linear foot.
Glass is glass and it will never equal a good wall assembly. So any windows and doors are always a compromise. These systems are good but pricey. A lot depends on the install. If not done 100% correctly, you will have problems later on with opening/closing/sealing.
Some people will spend more on folding wall systems than some people will spend on building an entire home. No exaggeration, I've seen it myself.
Point is, a folding wall system will make it very difficult for a home to be truly energy efficient. Glass is glass and the more of it you have, the lower your efficiency will be. It will be your biggest loss in energy efficiency in your building assembly.
With that said, if you must have it and will not compromise, then getting a better window/door assembly is the way to go if you can afford it.
Peter,
I agree. It does seem odd to come to a website and say that the higher quoted price is only for those people interested in energy efficiency, when that site is devoted to exactly those people.
Sitting in our house still under construction and it sounded like a small bomb went off. "Spontaneous breakage" Nanawall calls it & NOT COVERED UNDER WARRANTY. Read the fine print before you agree to spend tens of thousands of dollars with these folks! AND another couple thousand for faulty install. Bad product from a bad company! Low quality!
Well, here are my thoughts: Consider cost-effective alternatives and consult experts for innovative installation methods to reduce expenses when installing a folding wall system.
Seek feedback on specific products like Marvin's Scenic Door system or Panoramicdoors from industry forums, social media groups, or local professionals to make an informed choice.