Replies

1. 
   Peter Yost | Apr 14, 2019 11:00am | #1

   Hi Kevin -

   I am afraid I can only help you with #4: this is a great resource on ALL levels of incentives on energy efficiency and renewables: Database of State Incentives for Renewables and Efficiency (http://www.dsireusa.org).

   Other GBA community members may be able to help you with your other questions. My cut is that that level of info is hard to find and often hard to use to make apples-to-apples comparisons.

   Peter

2. 
   kevin_kircher | Apr 19, 2019 11:49am | #2

   Thanks for the link, Peter. Agreed that apples-to-apples comparisons are tough here. Lots of variation by state, year, installer, etc.

   I dug around a bit and found some interesting anecdotes. I figured I'd post them here in case future readers are interested. In summary, estimates for a one-ton cold-climate mini-split are the following.

   Total installed cost: $4000 to $8000
   Heat pump: $1300 to $1500
   Labor: $600 to $1200
   Materials/electrical: $700 to $900
   Overhead/profit: $400 to $5400

   Source: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2409659/why-is-split-ductless-so-expensive-when-installed

   Quotes:

   "I know the retail and wholesale pricing for the equipment. For example, one unit we were considering, just a single split unit (1:1), was $1500 wholesale, $2200 retail. The installed cost for this unit is being quoted at $4500."

   "HVAC contractors mark up Mini Splits Way too much. I needed 2 Mitsubishi Ductless units in my Basement that I was finishing. The 3 HVAC companies I called quoted me between $10,000 and $13,000 for the job without electrical (hookups were put in by the electrician who wired the basement). The units an all lines etc cost me $3900 and I found a HVAC contractor doing homes in a neighborhood nearby and I paid him $1200 to install both units. "

   "My system is a one-ton (12000btu) Mitsubishi mini split, 18 SEER, for the FROG. High bid was $6200, low bid was $3644! Oh, the $6200 bidder, as well as the other "over bidders" offered special $500 discounts, which brought my high bid down to $5700, still over $2000 more than my low bid."

   "I've been pushing kids to choose mini split installation when choosing a career, it's a goldmine compared to other jobs. The price for the equipment is dirt cheap now, just check acwholesalers. Easy money. Eg: that Mitsubishi mini split costs $1,274.95 with free shipping."

   "A reasonable price to a HVAC contractor for Labor only to install a mini split is $1000-1200. This should account for a reasonable labor rate (10man hours @75/hr) and $250-450 for business overhead, use of tools etc. The materials needed for install including linsets, connecting wires, line hide, mounting brackets etc should come in around $400. The electrical hookup should come in $300-$500. The unit itself for a single head unit (I am using 12000 BTU highest end Mitsubishi as an example ) is $1760. The total install cost should be $3460 $3860. There is no reason a mini split should cost $7-8000 installed. The way a typical HVAC contractor estimates a job is to add up all the materials and double the cost. Find a small local HVAC guy who will do a labor only install and you will save a ton of money,"

   "Malba is very correct. If you find a small local HVAC guy you will save a ton of money. Before I had an actual company, when I used to do installs on weekends, I would factor in somewhere around $600 - 900 for my labor for mini splits depending on the install environment / any potential hindrances etc. This was fine for because I would make almost my whole paycheck for 40 hours in one extra day"

3. 
   kevin_kircher | Apr 19, 2019 11:51am | #3

   Curt Kinder wrote a wonderful reply in the comments of this blog post: https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/are-ductless-minisplits-overpriced

   I'll quote it in full:

   While it is appealing to the uknowing to assume $300 - $500 ought to suffice to get a $1500 wholesale minisplit heat pump installed, reality suggests otherwise:

   In addition to the usual issues of employee pay, benefits, training, vehicles, insurance, licensure, office and shop space that confront any tradesman, Furnishing and installing aminisplit or any other HVAC system requires:

   1) before anything else, someone needs to run a load calc - that means sending a competent person to site (in a vehicle) with a laptop or tablet loaded with licensed software. That guy needs to know how to do a Man J, and it will take some time to make all the necessary measurements and ask the right questions of th cleint.

   2) Generally we'll propose 2 - 3 system options from which the client chooses what best fits needs - proposal generation takes time and money.

   3) Once the system is selected, a mechanical permit is needed.The city or county will require a permit - that includes a fee, administrative activity to pull the permit, and more to schedule the inspection, requiring coordination with the homeowner.

   4) Back office activities include getting the system on order, taking delivery, and then getting it and all its accessories and supplies acquired and staged for pickup by the install team.

   5) In addition to the much-aforementioned evacuation, consider also nitrogen purge, brazing or flaring of copper connections, and pressure testing. There is the cost of the copper lineset, and its insulation. Minisplits also need a specialized power and data cable between indoor and outdoor sections.

   5a) Complete and proper evacuation should be verified with a micron gauge, competently used.

   6) Minisplits, like any other HVAC system, generate condensate which must be reliably collected and drained so as to meet code and not create a nuisance. The condensate drain pipe must be carefully sloped and insulated, possibly even pumped. The indoor unit, if in a sensitive location, may need an additional condensate overflow interlock to prevent damage.

   7) The outdoor unit needs to be securely fastened (hurricane code) to a suitably selected, sized, and elevated mounting pad.

   8) The client will probably want assurance that the installer has experience and credentials to improve probability of an efficient reliable system - EPA certification is a bare minimum, NATE and / or manufacturer certifications highly desirable.

   9) The client will likely need a bit of hand-holding as the system is placed in service - a hands on tour of the control / thermostat, a discussion of maintenance requirements as well as warranty registration of the newly installed system.

   10) In addition to the usual during-business-hours back office infrastructure normally taken for granted, most clients value the ability to contact their HVAC contractor after hours, the other 128 hours of the week not covered during 9 - 5, Monday through Friday. Emergency service requires an on-call technician ready to respond as well as availability of loaner portable or window air conditioners and space heaters.

   11) After all of the above is furnished and paid for, there is the question of what is a reasonable profit margin for the contractor? A mere 10% profit margin, after all is said and done would please most contractors. Is that too much to ask?

4. Expert Member
   Dana Dorsett | Apr 19, 2019 12:16pm | #4

   As a crude rule of thumb in my area, internet price x 2 or a bit more is about where a simple bid will come in from competent installers in competitive bidding, sometimes a bit more if it's a busy season or there are complexities to the installation. That puts a typical Mitsubishi FH12 or Fujitsu 12RLS3H in the $3.5-4.5K range and the LA120HYV1 in the $3-3.5K range.

   Not all 1-ton-ish mini-splits have the same low-temp heating capacity. Even a 3/4 ton Fujitsu 9RLS3H puts out 15,000 BTU/hr @ +5F at max speed, which is more than the 13,720 BTU/hr @ +5F delivered by the LA120HYV1 or the 13,600 BTU/hr delivered by the FH12NA at that temp.

5. 
   kevin_kircher | Apr 19, 2019 12:32pm | #5

   Nice, thanks for the rule of thumb. And good point about low-temperature performance varying a lot by brand and model. Always worth keeping in mind.

   The blog post I linked above has a few other interesting data points. (https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/are-ductless-minisplits-overpriced) The source is an interview with a contractor that installs a couple of hundred mini-splits a year in VT and NH.

   "The cost of equipment is about $1,750. Mark showed me an actual invoice for a Mitsubishi 1-ton, single-zone, Hyper-Heat, including the compressor, indoor head, line set, controllers, concrete pad, and 18-inch compressor stand."

   "$150 line hide, including wall inlet, two straight sections, one coupling, one end outlet, spray foam, and caulking for a standard 30-foot line length. $60 control wire and drain, at $2 per foot. $1,280 labor: two guys, five hours each at job, including travel time. $725 electrical work: 240-volt 20-amp wiring 50 feet to panel, and including code-required exterior GFI duplex service outlet (labor and materials)."

   Total cost to installer: $3965
   Heat pump: $1750
   Materials: $210
   Labor: $1280
   Electrical: $725

   That's for a 200-unit bulk job. Presumably the labor and electrical costs are marked up to include overhead and/or profit. $100 per worker per hour is a bit high for installation wages, I think, given that a relatively small portion of the work requires a certified technician.

6. 
   willymo | Nov 24, 2019 02:50pm | #6

   My contractor will be installing 4 FH06 Hyper units for $14,600 w/12 yr. warranty. In my area (RI) I get a $2,000 rebate and 0% financing. $3650 each.
   FYI

   And yes, I got higher bids!

1. 
   willymo | Dec 12, 2019 02:50pm | #7

   That price included the electrical work for a new 4-circuit sub-panel for the minispits.

   The units wholesale are ~$1600 each; linesets, kumo cloud, and wall stands would add ~$500 each. So ~$1600 each to install, including the electrical work.

   2 Electricians 6 hours each; 2 HVAC guys 22 hours each, plus handholding for the set-up, controls, etc.

1. Expert Member
   Dana Dorsett | Dec 12, 2019 05:38pm | #8

   For a nearby comparison the MassCEC keeps tabs on installed costs that can be narrowed down by size, manufacturer, year of installation, town, and even by contractor:

   https://www.masscec.com/cost-residential-air-source-heat-pumps

   Play around with it a bit- the range of installed cost for the same equipment varies quite a bit by contractor and location. But state-wide the median is running about $3700/ton.

   That website is a VERY useful tool for those shopping around for contractors in MA. But of the ~20,000 installations logged into that data set so far, ~14,000 of them are Mitsubishi- a ~70% market share, with about 5000 Fujitsu eating up another 25% of the market, with the remaining 5% split among the rest.

   These are only projects that went through the MassCEC, not a compilation of all installations in the state, but the market shares seems consistent with observed experience. Mitsubishi is the 800lb gorilla, Fujitsu a distant second, the rest are all fighting over table scraps, at least for now.

1. 
   willymo | Dec 12, 2019 05:55pm | #9

   Yes, smaller units like mine have a much larger per ton cost, because the labor is essentially the same regardless of size. While per ton is useful for some applications, per unit cost is also important.