Laying Hardwood in an Octagonal Pattern
jamesboris
| Posted in General Questions on
Not a building science question here — except that, if this comes out beautiful, it’ll inspire people to take care of the house for another 100 years, which is very green! Just thought I’d throw this out to the excellent craftspeople here and see what people think.
I’m going to install a ¾” x 5” solid oak floor (Select quality) in an octagonal room, with concentric octagon “rings” of flooring. Every board will end with a 22.5º miter cut, in which I’ll route a groove and install a spline.
There are 2 options:
1) Rings meet at miters, like this: https://www.svbwoodfloors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/SVB-Foyer-Octagonal-300×300.jpg
2) Rings terminate at “spokes”, which come from a “hub,” like this: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSPibuZRZlnDPWTnkXFXrxyndQ_xijo6Hx2kQ&usqp=CAU
Either takes a ton of precision. I’m a solid carpenter – and have installed a handful of solid floors, did an excellent job I’d say… but I’m but not a seasoned pro. I want to make up for that with good planning + patience 🙂
I lean to Option 2, because Option 1 requires *perfect* cuts to make that long hairline between the miters dead straight. The spokes will hide some discrepancy (and will mirror the ceiling beams). Option 1 also requires every piece in a ring to be the exact same width in order for the “ring lines” to look right – even a 5 1/64” piece will create gaps.
If I do Option 2… should install all the spokes up front or not? I say no – because I’m doing a glue-assist install (cleat-nails + stripes of Bona glue). I’ll have to dry-fit most pieces repeatedly to get a perfect fit… and once I’m there, I’ll have to remove the piece, add glue, put it back, and nail it. Problem is, pulling out a piece perfectly wedged in between 2 spokes is very likely to damage it.
So, here’s how I’d do it:
1) Install an octagonal medallion with 5” L sides (so that I can use 5” W flooring for the spokes).
2) Install just one spoke. Hold in place w/blocks.
3) Install flooring up to it, stopping where the next ray goes. Stay straight w/14’ L straight-edge.
4) Put a 14’ L straight-edge against the exposed edge, and sand any proud pieces to perfection (this is a major advantage of this method.
5) Install next spoke. (Final section requires wedging.)
Would really appreciate any thoughts or general advice! I’m more nervous about this than the first time I framed a roof… I can’t find anyone in Texas who’s even done this before.
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My last house was octagonal[originally the entire house, I later added on] with oak floors
They used a piece of IIRC 1x6 oak between each sector.
The center was IIRC 3 or 4 pieces of 1x6 to make the center section.
The original owners whimsically used a piece with a largish open knot in the center
Since I did not do the carpentry I cannot say for sure but assume the spokes were just flat boards. It was 6 or 7 years old when I bought it and 18 years old when I sold it and I had no problems with irregularities or lifting. I scuffed and finished it once but never resanded it.
Most of this time period was pre digital camera/smart phone but I will look to see if I have any detail pics
Your first image isn't loading for me but the intent is clear.
Is the oak quartersawn? A 5" board will move noticeably with changes in humidity; less so with quartersawn. Riftsawn is almost as stable as quartersawn. Flatsawn (aka plainsawn) moves the most.
The gaps might be less noticeable with the spokes but it's hard to say.
Aesthetically, the spokes will draw more attention to the floor, which could be good or bad, depending on your goals. If you have an amazing view or nice wall art, you might not want so much focus on the floor.
For either pattern, considering the time it's going to take to do it, I would use 3 1/4" or narrower flooring so seasonal gapping is less noticeable. And I would be very careful about moisture content. I was a bit too optimistic on the last floor I laid and the gaps remind me of that every winter.
If you go with the spokes, I would install all of them first and fit each board to the spoke. If dry-fitting the boards damages them, you are probably using too much force. Maybe consider using a temporary spoke on one end so you can unscrew it if necessary.
If you go without spokes, I would screw a temporary spoke in place and fit an entire flooring section before moving to the next one. Doing one full ring at a time is likely to result in a slightly wavy line at the miters as you noted.
To reduce the number of trips to the miter saw, a good flooring trick is to mark the board in place, upside-down. Another trick is to use two miter saws so each one can remain perfectly dialed in. The stock 22.5° detent is likely to be not exactly what you need.
Thanks Michael! GBA keeps replacing the "x" near the end of that first url with some sort of x-like symbol... it's weird. Just replace it with a good old "x" in your address bar. A followup:
"If dry-fitting the boards damages them, you are probably using too much force. Maybe consider using a temporary spoke on one end so you can unscrew it if necessary."
I dunno... a Powerjack or a good flooring nailer exerts a ton of force. I'm pretty neurotic about gaps, using the Powerjack all the time to close them. Maybe 1 out of 5 boards is tight enough for my standards. I don't feel I can say "that cut's perfect" until the thing's really jammed in.
James, I don't think forcing the boards together is a smart approach with this kind of layout; there's too much risk of pushing things out of alignment due to the steep angle of the end cuts. You asked for advice and that's mine. But it's your floor, do what you want!
A trick I learned putting down click laminate: it floats, and you pretty much have to use a mallet to make it click. If you screw some scrap pieces to the subfloor you can make a starting section that won't move. That gives you something to hammer against. Once the rest of the floor is laid you take up the scraps and fill in that area.
computers never forget....
I've now been through two summers and a winter with my hardwood floors and I've never had floors that move so little. I watched the guys install them and I noticed a few things. They used staples through the tongue and glued down every piece. They also liberally used a biscuit joiner wherever straight cuts met.
Oh man. That sounds like an incredible crew.
The crew that did my personal install of a similar vintage did not have a table saw (so it was fun to watch them do long rips on a miter saw with some very dangerous technique) and one of them slept in the corner of a room during half of the install process.
Yay, subcontractors!
They were a good bunch. They only had trouble with one thing. I had a mixture of 3, 4 and 5 inch boards. I wanted them randomized and they said they didn't know how to do that. So I had to write out on a piece of paper:
3-4-5
3-5-4
5-3-4
5-4-3
4-5-3
4-3-5
then repeat.
Ok, I am no hardwood floor guy, but I am a track saw guy. If you go for the spoke approach, could you lay your floor so that is approximately where you want it, within the space of your spoke board. Then use a track saw to rip the flooring exactly where the spoke will sit? If you are doing glue you could also lay masking tape where the spoke is going to be set and then when you rip them those tails would be easy to remove.
Or perhaps some rendition of the above could work. One thing you may need to keep in mind is getting the first couple next to the wall perfect as the track saw will not be able to cut all the way to the wall.
Freyr_design
My homemade tracksaw for cutting down sheet goods on site.
Write your name on it in green lettering and you can charge lots for it :D
A piece of aluminum angle under the "track" would make it T-square-like, somewhat like a drywall square. Then you'd be able to slide it along a panel always at a right angle to the panel edge. Might be a nice add-on for you.
Bill
Especially if your name is "Festool."
DC,
I was looking at the new Milwaukee cordless track-saw at my lumberyard. Lots of good options now that aren't too pricey!
I've been using the Wen tracksaw, the saw, 110" track and clamps is about $185. I replaced the blade with a Makita blade and it cuts nicely. It doesn't feel like it will be as durable as a more expensive saw but it's very handy for cutting down plywood. The track is also handy as a router guide or any time you need a long straight edge.
I like it, way better for framing than petite little aluminum rail, especially when they are $500. At least Milwaukee finally came out with some reasonably priced rails… huh, is that their prototype?
And then route in a groove on the track-sawn edge? I'd been planning to use a router table but suppose I could try and do it by hand, if a bearing is running on a straight edge the groove should (gulp) be straight.
I don't think you need a groove. A 2 1/4 board edge cannot get away from the board ahead and behind. Also, how would you get the second piece of flooring into place?
Thinking about it and looking at what pics I have, this is what it looks like they did
Start at the wall, you have to, only way to avoid big errors
Layout the pattern
Start with one 1x6 screwed to the floor
Lay one segment of the floor hard against the first board. Let the boards overlap where the 'missing' board is.
snap a line and cut the flooring
screw the second board down
lay the second floor segment
repeat
IF you have two 1x6 boards screwed down, and you start from the wall, you cannot fit the boards in, they are longer than the space they are trying to get into, until they are in it!
All the pictures I took of the floor on purpose were analog, but there are clues in what I can find, some minor splintering it appears on one side of the spoke, but not on the other.
Notice the solution the carpenters used on my floor. I think because as you get to the center the spokes get too wide, visually. They wove 4 rows to transition to the center, then the silly knot board
Wow, that's interesting design. I found a decagon I like: https://www.instagram.com/p/CSMi-xIrb2g/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==. My boards are 5" W, not 2 1/4" strips though, so I need to hold down them edges...
You can attach router to tracks.
I like this idea because the room is unlikely to be a perfect octagon. If you make the floor a perfect octagon it's probably not going to line up with the vertices of the room by the time you get out to the edges. But if you just line the spokes up with the vertices you can hide any imperfection in the room.
@freyr_design - will that work with any track saw? Or are there specific ones I should look for that allow me to connect a router base? I'm new to the world of track saws, if you have any recommendations. My cut length's nearly 15'...
Almost all tracks are interchangeable to my knowledge. Obviously if you getting one new I would probably buy within the same family. I have the Festool but now that Milwaukee has one I would get that one. They also have a much more reasonably priced long track. If you need it longer Festool sells track connectors that again work with almost all tracks. The router is I think a little more specific, you need a plate that works with your router. Festool obviously makes one, but you won’t be able to afford your lumber if you buy it. There are track attachments for the Bosch router, that would be my route (pun intended) as I own one.
The Milwaukee track saw honestly looks more feature packed than Festool, though I will say german engineering makes the Festool feel really precise.
Lastly, if you are planning on connecting and disconnecting tracks often I would buy a track alignment tool. It’s basically a very precise cnc piece that allows you to perfectly align your tracks so they are straight.