Sealing Minisplit Line Set Penetration in Siding
lekawa
| Posted in Energy Efficiency and Durability on
Just came home to these huge holes where line sets were pulled through from stud bay to exterior. HVAC guy says insulater just fills with spray foam. I’m thinking NOT.
These line-set were run “inside” the walls, and this is where they exit near the ground where the compressor will be.
Can someone tell me what’s “standard treatment” here… (if there is a standard treatment, that is…I know line sets are usually run along exterior instead of in stud bays)
If there’s no “standard” treatment, any suggestions for air & water sealing? and also exterior “aesthetics”?
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Line set covers are usually installed to aesthetically cover the lines, but from what I've seen in their instructions, they are rarely properly flashed against water penetration. The upper cap of the line set cover is usually just screwed on top of the siding - with no caulk or flashing to seal the gaps where the siding slopes at an angle or to prevent water from leaking under the top of the cover. Not good at all!
We are building a new house with vinyl siding and are installing a mini split ourselves, and I decided to treat that penetration similar to my other wall penetrations. We created a PVC mounting board to provide a flat support for the upper cap of the line set cover where the line set exited the wall, and used high quality flashing tape and metal flashing material (and some caulk) to prevent water leakage around it. It was all integrated with our Tyvek, too. Our vinyl siding butted up to the mounting board. Other material will be used to air seal the gap in the wall around the line set.
I'm not sure how to do that with a pre-existing wall with rigid siding. It blows my mind that so many contractors feel it's OK to just leave a huge hole in the wall, with minimal foam or caulking to seal it. I hope someone here has a good suggestion for you!
Hi. I’ll be installing a couple splits soon. Your mentioned process for the wall penetrations- sounds really good. Through all of my reading, I have not, surprisingly, seen this mentioned. Makes sense though. What does your /a PVC mounting board look like?
Thx
This photo is actually the line-sets that go directly to compressor.... Sort of backwards from the more common installation where linesets are run on the exterior to reach the compressor....these lines have been run in the interior of the wall and the point at which they exit is about 2 to 3 feet from where compressor will be. (picture posted sideways for some reason, I've just corrected them) I believe the standard line-set covers are made to connect to the the straight extension pieces. But, you know, you've given me an idea. Maybe I could get the end cap only, and direct it downward....Just to cover the hole?
The "top end" solution is to peel away some of your siding, install a flashing boot (taped in to your water resistive barrier/drainage plane/housewrap), and reinstall the siding. Some excellent prefabricated products come from these guys:
http://www.quickflashproducts.com/products_hvac.html
Note that the rubber would need to be slit to slide it around existing lineset openings.
An alternate, less intrusive solution is to surface mount some type of a hood to 'shield' the lineset opening from rain. In the example below, I hacked together a Home Depot aluminum vent hood to make this shield.
In either case, an air seal is also required--expanding foam is the typical solution there.
Normally there would be a small sleeve installed before the linset is run. On the outside this is covered, a quality install should look like this:
https://www.familyhandyman.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/FH19SEP_597_50_044.jpg
In your case, I would fill the hole with canned foam stop a bit short of the siding and caulk on the outside, then cover the linset as above.
When running lines inside walls make sure the insulation on them is intact, any exposed copper will sweat. If it is running through studs, I like to put a small plastic sleeve around it (2" central vac pipe slit on the side usually fits) to prevent noise as it moves from thermal expansion. This is more of an issue if you have a long run.
Thanks for the ideas!
Kohta Ueno: "Top End", while it sounds awesome, is not a luxury I can afford right now (financially or mental health-wise!) I've been shooting for the sweet spot between "Top-End" and "Good enough"....
Akos, I truly adore your "style". If only you were in Lawrence, KS I would have hired you to do this entire project.
Pretty much every single sub I've dealt with (with the exception of the roofer and my bro-in-law plumber) has done a careless job for a "done-right" price. And, no, my expectations aren't excessively high.
For instance, I pre-purchased this mini-split system that came with two line sets for the the air handlers...the sleeves you mention...the condensate drains, tape (I assume to bundle power cord to line sets)...etc...etc... The same HVAC guy who installed my bath vent in that bizarre way (from other post) also ignored the existence of sleeves, etc...didn't (initially) install the 3/4" pvc condensate drain he had suggested using and agreed to use (longer lasting for in-wall drain) ...didn't (initially) get the line set in the right stud bay on one air handler...didn't install condensate drain for second air handler the way we had planned it (straight out the wall into 3/4" pvc pipe) but rather fed condensate line provided with mini-split through four new studs around a corner to drain about 1 foot away from where it would have if he had installed the drain straight out the wall the way we agreed. And the drilled holes that were three times larger than they needed to be through 4 of my studs! . He did end up coming back and spent a mere 20 minutes moving line set to proper stud bay and replaced the weirdly routed condensate drain with braided vinyl tubing that I had to go and pick up myself (cost $50) and he didn't use the wall sleeves for either line set (and I only see one of them still on-site. It's not like he's not getting paid enough to do the job right. He's spent about 3 hrs total here even with the fixes (I removed the bath fan and ducting and upside down roof vent myself)...and I now have a damaged soffit that needs to be repaired and have to pay electrician ($85) to pull new wire and re-install bath fan in a location that will work properly. Spent a good hour today taping up torn spots in line-set insulation (one of which was due to line set rubbing against un-sleeved hole) to avoid the "sweating"issues you mention (and tape that came with line-sets was nowhere to be found....HVAC guy now wants half ($875) of his bid (which was $1750) for these three hours. Am I crazy for feeling $292/hr is far too much considering the circumstances? Sorry if I'm whining.... I'm just still shocked every single time I hire another sub who operates in this completely careless way. $1750 for a dryer vent, and carelessly installed mini-split system, and a damaged soffit...damaged line-set insulation just left as is...etc...etc... .and he doesn't even seal up the holes he drilled? Am I missing something? The guy is quite "friendly", but seems to be living in some alternate reality where people hand over money to people who don't understand they're expected to provide something in return. I'm going to think long and hard before having this guy come back for the hook-up after drywall is done...
I did spray foam today (with Great Stuff Pro Gaps & Cracks) from the interior and plan to caulk the exterior and probably cover each with end caps/wall penetration covers like the one from your photo at the top left, although it will be just this one piece and down next to the compressor.
Would have been "happy enough" with sealing up the hole myself if he had just drilled his hole through one board of siding instead of half on one and half on the other.... I will now have to deal with the uneven mounting surface.
Where do you get central vac pipe? Do you mean the flexible hose material?
Leslie, the wall cap in Kohta's link is $14.95--not exactly a bank-breaker for a best-practices approach.
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with your HVAC contractor. Unfortunately things like that are way too common. Even general contractors can struggle with finding subcontractors who care. For a few generations now, schools have discouraged good students from pursuing the building trades, and this type of thing is one result of that. There are many excellent contractors out there but they can be hard to find.
Yeah, the cap itself isn't expensive, but it doesn't sound like a "no brainer" to get it in behind siding... From what I've seen, my own common sense and the fact that I actually "care" how it turns out would probably make me a better candidate for installing than someone else, but I've got so many balls in there air, I'm having to seriously prioritize. I'm guessing I could handle it "well enough for now" and change it later if it becomes a problem, or if the "look" of it is bothering me.
Yeah, these guys all remind me of storm cleanup scammers....Taking maximum advantage of supply/demand issues...and the way they can do this with a straight face...That's "talent" (but unfortunately the wrong kind)
Similar question. I am having 4 Mitsubishi 1:1 mini splits installed now and working with a very reasonable company that knows I'm detailed oriented. They're steps are pVC wall sleeve, foamed, electrical putty, line cover with caulk. I had purchased some liquid flashing (3M adhesive sealant). Would this do a better job than the putty under the line cover?
Will R. + Consider yourself lucky/blessed to have found a reasonable company that is willing to tolerate your detail-oriented nature. Your plan sounds good to me but obviously I'm no expert!
This is what I ended up with. No wall sleeve, so I thoroughly foamed and caulked around the entry point(s). Found another HVAC company to complete the installation and was so relieved that they weren't completely careless that I didn't want to "push it" when they told me that this insulation that the line sets came encased in was meant to withstand the outdoors.
If anyone believes this to be bad advice and/or has any ideas on what I might be able to do to increase longevity, please let me know!
This is on the North side of the house (North Eastern KS) so it only gets late afternoon sun.
As you can all see, I didn't put any kind of hood at the entry points. It's so ugly in that corner already I didn't want to keep adding more protrusions...although if it will really make a difference, I could probably add a cap easily enough, or I think I could make a curved hood out of leftover galvanized flashing that's "just big enough" and possibly paint it to match the house.
I live in Lawrence, too. I am about to have some splits put in and it’s been a struggle finding a budget friendly installer… I think found someone but I hope it’s not the same person (Steve Chontos) that did yours..
Did you ever end up putting a sleeve on the line set? Did your luck ever take an upward turn as far as finding sub contractors in the area?
Allison
No, It wasn't Steve Chontos (isn't he from Kansas City?)....and I've got to say, even more important (and more difficult) than finding "budget friendly" subs in Lawrence, was just finding subs that weren't completely careless. I hate to say that....I know it makes me sound like a "princess", but take my word for it, it's almost unbelievable what I encountered from, I'd say, at least 80% of the subs I found. (There were a few who just came in a did their job and charged what they agreed)
I just think they're in very high demand and they must have just become spoiled by this imbalance. The sleeve was never installed...in fact the first guy (who installed the line sets in the walls (before drywall was hung) took off with half of my "parts" that came with the unit. Just considered them "superflous", I suppose...I had to call them and ask them to bring back what they deemed "unnecessary" before firing them and finding someone else to complete the installation of the condenser and air handlers. Truthfully, I could have done a better job myself by just watching YouTube videos because they're not difficult to install and most importantly... I actually CARE how it turns out and I think that's the most important qualification! I really just didn't have the confidence required...and It's an expensive piece of equipment...I was a little afraid I might screw something up...and with the line sets running inside the walls...that just added more complexity and hence intimidation. Little did I know that money doesn't necessarily equal expertise or quality installation.
If you know this guy and trust that he'll do what he says he'll do (I would be present anyway...seriously...) you might as well go with him. It's always a crap-shoot (from my experience) but making sure you're both on the same page by getting the details of what you've discussed down on some kind of signed agreement...just for the sake of clear understanding...is always a really good idea...although, even that is no guarantee.
If you're just doing a standard straight through the wall installation, you could probably save yourself a considerable amount of money and maybe huge headache by doing that part yourself...and just have a licensed HVAC tech do the final start-up which may be necessary if your warranty requires that.
The guys who completed the installation told me that the wall sleeve was not really 100% necessary ...and that I just needed to be sure the line sets weren't able to move and rub against anything that would wear a hole in the insulation. the flange on the sleeve wouldn't have sat flush with the siding anyway due to the hole having been drilled between two siding planks instead of in the middle of one of them. It's all very well foamed and caulked now...and not able to move... and is "probably fine".
Still wondering if I should cover the exposed insulation with some kind of UV resistant tape or something though.
I’m not sure where he’s from. I’m not confident either but have also watched a lot of videos- so I’m, at least, going to attempt the mounting and hole drilling. I have to go through my foundation- so I’m kind of spooked about that.
As far as sub contractor horror stories- I recently had my crawl space encapsulated. It was a nightmare. The insulation company was not supposed to do it but did it anyway. They covered up a bunch of debris and trash that was leftover from previous owners that I was going to remove. Then they didn’t even seal the plastic liner to the foundation (I went down there and and just happened to look when I was doing something). They came back after I pointed this out.
I’ve had to point out so many things to subs and most of the time I get some response that supports their lack of attention to detail- but they make it sound like they know what their doing and it shuts down my observation and then it’s done wrong. So frustrating! The wall sleeves help give a finished look atheistically and also I guess you can caulk around them for weatherization purposes. My point is, I feel your pain.
I call it "crazy making" rather than merely frustrating.
There needs to be a way to negotiate work and cost in a way that's satisfactory to both parties, but more often than not, subs seems to be insulted by the questions that are necessary to negotiate the deal....As if we're all supposed to have 100% trust in some random sub we know nothing about...and he's supposed to "read our mind" in regard to what it is we're needing. This DOESN'T WORK! Both subs and homeowners should be seeking and considering the needs of both and then pricing accordingly...But not everyone is capable of this straightforward non-reactive negotiation. Subs are often "triggered" by questions and specific requests...and can take such requests as a personal judgement on their abilities and/or character rather than useful information that will help them calculate an appropriate price.... When they shut down the communication, and insist they know everything they need to know...and then miss things...??? All I can say is I'll never again do business with someone who can't handle reasonable and respectful questions and requests with the same respect and good-faith effort in return... This is often easier said than done...One such example from my own experience: ....when you have footings dug and concrete forms in and ready to fill...and it's mid October....makes it very difficult (but not impossible!) to fire your concrete guy (who's not acting in good faith) not knowing when/if you'll be able to get someone else in there before in gets too cold to pour. But yeah....anything and everything you can to do create "clarity" (in writing) before work is done and then BEING there to make sure it's done the way it was agreed couldn't be more important. Relying on trust and their concern for their professional reputation is extremely risky when they are in high demand. The only ones you'll be happy with are the ones with a naturally good work-ethic and a conscience...and those are sadly decreasing in numbers.
This article from Jon Harrod offers another option:
Wall Sleeves: The Accessory You Never Knew You Needed.
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Kiley, Thanks for the article...The link isn't taking me there but I found it by searching the title.
https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/176803
Yes, my vote is USE YOUR WALL SLEEVE...to anyone wondering. I really wish the sleeve had been used in my case but it wasn't. :( On the plus side, the walls had not yet been drywalled so I was able to spray foam the heck out of the penetration from both sides...and then, after trimming the foam flush with siding, I caulked it with a high quality exterior polyurethane caulk. There's no air getting through if "for now". What I'm finding annoying is that I'm going to have to keep an eye on it's integrity basically "forever" as the caulking doesn't seem like it will last as long being the only thing between the siding and the line sets.
I install a lot of heat pumps and had good results using a standard primex 4 inch dryer vent with the screen cut out. its water repellant and you can spray foam afterwards in the hole and not end up with an ugly mess. Also they are easy to get and pretty cheap and come in lots of colors