How far do your innie tilt and turn windows open?
I am finalizing a materials order for a REMOTE wall build with intus tilt and turn windows. Those of you who have installed tilt and turns in the “innie” position: how much of an opening angle have you achieved?
I know that these windows technically have the ability to open a full 180 degrees into the room, but many common installations and trim details seem to stop them at about 90*. I am having some difficulty finding images of installations that allow greater opening angles, and am considering changing plans to an outie install if an opening closer to 180* cannot be accomplished.
If any of you have tilt and turns that open well beyond 90*, I’d greatly appreciate a write up or image detailing your install. I’m especially interested in intus windows or others with similar mounting bracket systems, which I feel may allow the window to be located at the very inside edge of the rough opening if it is beneficial.
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Jim,
This video shows an Intus window installed as an outie or an in-betweenie, and it still opens more than 90 degrees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhtYPE30Q40
Yes, but it isn't trimmed in yet. When the opening closes in 3/4" or more on the hinge side, I can't picture it opening much past 90 anymore.
Typically tilt and turns have pretty beefy frames, so you have a big target for your extension jambs or drywall returns. If you're really concerned, you can flare the sides.
You should be able to find a detailed scale drawing of your window, either from your rep or their website. It wouldn't be hard to figure it out yourself if you know how much wall will be inboard of the window.
A few items of concern or info:
Nearly every window, can be installed with brackets, if you are looking to avoid using flanges.
Flaring the window opening in a REMOTE building strategy is VERY difficult, in a practical sense. It is a situation that sounds good on paper, but when it comes to the framing - it will not be easy at all, for many reasons.
One of the best attributes of tilt-turn windows IS their ability to open over 90 to at least 120 -180. I know many who hate the tilt-turn that only open to 90.
I know many on GBA, and other "green building/Passive House (PH) websites advocate for the higher end PH rated window. I'd love to see the cost analysis vs, performance though of an expensive PH rated window, vs, say Marvin Next Generation or Andersen. I mean when your talking $800-1500+ per window for an average/non egress sized low-end PH rated window, the costs just can't equate. For example - we just spent $45,000 on windows (Marvin - Next Generation) - compare that to a low-end PH rated window, the costs were $87,000, just for windows! There is absolutely now way that the $43,000 we saved would have been recouped using at "better" window. We put the money into the envelope, super insulation, most efficient HRV, etc., etc., etc.......
We went back and forth, back and forth, back and forth - comparing and contrasting, cost estimating, energy loss evaluations, etc., in our possible window choices, that if I wrote; back and forth, back and forth for every time we did it, let's just say - it'd be ridiculous.
Just my two cents.....blah, blah, blah.
Brad,
Q. "I'd love to see the cost analysis vs, performance though of an expensive PH rated window, vs, say Marvin Next Generation or Andersen."
A. This topic has been discussed many times on GBA. Perhaps the most relevant article is this one: Study Shows That Expensive Windows Yield Meager Energy Returns.
Another relevant article is this one: Martin’s Pretty Good House Manifesto. In that article, I wrote, "Some energy-obsessed designers spend weeks trying to track down a European window that will nudge their design from 16 kWh/m2•year to 15 kWh/m2•year — a difference that might save $12 a year in a 2,000 square foot house. When the house is completed, however, it turns out that the teenagers in the family like to take 30-minute showers in the winter, and dry their hair with hair dryers during the summer. At that point, the $50,000 that you invested in European windows starts to look like a bad investment."
Thank you guys for the input.
Dan - I have examined the detailed drawings and modeled a cutaway on sketchup to allow me to adjust trim configurations and determine how far the window would rotate.
While there is an area 11/16" wide to which jamb extensions could be attached, any typical jamb extension or drywall return looks to me like it would stop these windows at ~90*. The hinge configuration swings the stile past the plane of the hinge and into that 11/16" you have to play with, reducing it to roughly 1/4" at the 90* open position.
A flared opening or very thin (1/4") extension of the jamb along the plane of the window creating an extra ~2.5" before bringing in the returns are the only solutions I seem able to make work. I'm just curious if others have figured this out...or do everyone's intus tilt and turns open to 90*?
I know this doesn't help your question, but I read in an architectural book a few weeks back that flairing the openings will allow a bunch more natural light and make the room appear larger. a benefit if you do decide to take this approach.
Martin,
Thanks - I was being some what tongue in cheek. It just seems crazy to me - the money folks spend on windows - when there are so many other places to use it. To each his/her own......
Jim, you have it right. My windows are not Intus but they are tilt and turn. If I had installed them on the interior of the wall, they would open 180 degrees but since they are installed on the sheathing, the jamb extensions only permit them to open about 95 degrees.
Flaring the window opening is slightly more difficult and has a small energy penalty, but it's not that hard for a decent framer to do.
Many Passive House owners find that it's so easy (and inexpensive) to keep the interior comfortable without opening the windows that they simply don't open them very often, or when they do, they tilt rather than turn the windows. The Passive House projects I have been involved with all have straight jambs (not flared) and open a bit over 90°.
There is at least one European window manufacturer making out-swing PH windows, if that helps you at all.
Jim,
Attached is a picture of Marvin tilt n turn that I installed a few years ago as an innie in a 2 x 4 wall. It opens almost 180 degrees. However, we never turn it except to clean. The amount of air flow we get through it as a tilt is great and it is easier to operate as a tilt. Now, if this were a PH wall and this was installed halfway in a 12" window buck then we would be looking at about 90 degrees. In that situation, I would expect less airflow as a tilt since the buck would obstruct it somewhat. It may make more sense to operate it as a turn in that case, but that would require more clearance as it will stick straight out. You could install the window flush to the interior in the PH wall to get the near 180 swing, but I recall that does create an energy penalty, not as bad as installing to the outside, but not as good as installing in the middle.
Jonathan - looks great! Thanks for taking the time to post the picture.
Jim, I shared your concern, so I placed some of my windows near an intersecting wall so even though the swing is limited to 110º or so it won't be an issue.
Alternative 2: in many of my windows, I have an operable sash mulled to a stationary as one unit, with the hinges in the middle. This allows the operable to fold back on the stationary. While some visibility is sacrificed when open, I still get the benefit of a huge door-size opening that makes the room feel like a screen porch.
Alternative 3: in one instance the operable side is twice the size of the stationary, so it looks kinda like a glass door with a sidelight (again, hinge is on the stile so it opens nearly 180º). I was worried it would look weird but I think it works just fine. It helps that all divided lights are the same size.
If you locate the window jamb flush with the interior side of framing and use 1/2" drywall, I think you will get closer to 170º than 90º. If I have time I'll do a mock-up and take a photo for you—might be next week before I get to it. Be advised however that this will be a "look," because if you use a 3/8" corner bead on the drywall return, it will nearly duplicate the sash's profile and they will be almost in the same plane (both proud of the frame).
Re: the cost v.s. performance issue, I am in Zone 4A so I opted for the Arcade window, and only dual glazing. I added the dark gray foil to both sides, and muntins that give me the look of four lights in each sash. When I compared the cost to Marvins or Andersons, or anything else that would be reasonably equivalent, the Intus windows were about the same price once I included the expense of finishing an interior wood sash.
The Intus windows of course are built like a submarine hatch, and around U-19 for the dual glazed (compared to U-28 or so for American). The foil inside and out makes them look high-end. They are beefy, and the overlay sash is a European look, but in my design they look sophisticated. The huge sizes that the reinforced UPVC makes possible is significant. With Marvin and Anderson I would have had to add a clerestory window to get to my 8' head.
Be aware that for orders less than $50,000 there may be a $5,000 shipping charge. My sales rep managed to combine my order with another of his customers, saving me that expense. He also has been superbly responsive and generously helpful, far far beyond what I experienced with reps for other windows.
David - thanks for the response. Your solutions make sense to me. I should mention that my window order is already placed - well under $50,000, and only a $500 shipping charge from performance building supply in Portland, Maine. They have also been excellent to deal with.
Thank you for the offer to mock up the install you describe as well. I can visualize what you have described, so while a picture would be helpful, please don't go out of your way to make this happen.
I think I have a fairly simple detail in mind that will create an opening angle close to 180* and allow for a mounting location at or near the sheathing. I hope to mock it up on sketchup over the next few days, and I'll post some images for feedback if I get this done.
Did you ever get the chance to do a mock up of the mounting location? I’d be interested to see that. I’m also looking at tilt/turn but hoping for an outie location, or at least at the sheathing.
Adam
Jim: I.also got my windows from.Performance Building Supply and also found them a pleasure to deal with. Our windows in the house are in the middle of the wall and only open 90°. But the garage windows, also tilt-turn, are on the inside, with the inside of the frame even with the studs. They open almost 180°