Sourcing Triple-Pane Vinyl Windows
ErikOlson
| Posted in General Questions on
Was planning on using Wasco triple pane windows with Cardinal LoE 180 glass (high SHGC). However, I was informed that they no longer make windows, and was directed to Minnkota windows of ND. They do not have high SHGC options listed on their site.
Are there any US suppliers making vinyl windows with this IGU:
https://www.cardinalcorp.com/products/coated-glass/loe-180-glass/
GBA Detail Library
A collection of one thousand construction details organized by climate and house part
Search and download construction details
Replies
Milgard?
Thanks, but unfortunately, they do not have any dealers in my state (MN)
FiberFrame in Ohio makes nice Fiberglass Frame windows with lots of glass options
Not seeing a high SHGC triple pane option on their site:
https://www.fiberframe.com/about-fiberframe/performance/
Am quoting fiberglass windows through Enerlux. They do have a high SHGC triple pane option:
https://enerluxwindows.com/options/glass-packages/
Am concerned fiberglass will be a budget buster. Hence, the interest in vinyl.
I have fiber frame windows, they will give you any Cardinal glass package you want. However, they do not use full 1 1/8” triple pane IGUs.
1-1/8" is the "middle" size triple pane. A full width/depth triple pane IGU is 1-3/8". The 7/8" triple pane option is basically a way for manufacturers to cheat a little and fit a "triple pane" IGU into a double pane window frame, and doesn't get nearly the same performance as either of the deeper triple pane options.
Bill
Bumping because I am interested in this as well. Thanks.
Unless you are designing something like a certified passive house, searching for higher SHGC glass is waste of effort. I've gone down this road to chase something like a 3% energy improvement and ended up with double pane windows in an area instead of triples because of the higher SHGC. It does work on those sunny winter days, but you can definitely feel the cold draft when the sun goes down.
Instead of chasing SHGC, if I could do it again, I would pick the lower U factor.
I'm inclined to agree: In my energy sim it was about a 25% reduction in yearly heating demand but an insubstantial amount in total electricity per year, going from low SHGC to high SHGC triple panes. In theory, there should be no cost difference for high SHGC vs regular low E. But it seems that in reality, it is a niche feature only available on fiberglass windows. My impression is that the energy star window rating system does not give "points" to high SHGC so most manufacturers don't sell it.
I am getting quotes of regular low e coated argon triple panes from some of the local and established vinyl window brands instead.
Erik, what are some of the vinyl triple pane window brands you are considering?
Hayfield, Thermo Tech (MN not CA), Jeld-Wen.
I received a quote back from Enerlux for fiberglass windows, with the high SHGC glass, which was reasonable.
Thank you!
Erik,
Looking into Hayfield windows. They do vinyl with triple pane. I do not think that they use cardinal IGU. I also don't think you will get as high of SHGC with the Hayfield. But I have always been very happy with their products. Scherer Bros in the Twin Cities does a lot of business with Hayfield so you could talk to them for a price. Scherer might also be able to point you to another brand that they sell that could meet your requirements.
I am quoting them. Have heard good things about their vinyl line.
I have triple pane vinyl tilt/turn windows from Innotech in Western Canada. They are 16 years old and look and function like the day they were installed, so very happy with them. My only regret is that I didn't install high solar heat gain on the south-facing glass. Caveat that I have wide overhangs so that they would be protected from the high summer sun. These windows do use Cardinal IGU's with
4mm glass /13mm airspace /3mm glass /13mm airspace /4mm glass. Total IGU depth is just a hair over the 1 3/8" that Bill noted earlier.
The center-of-glass U factor for a high solar gain Cardinal triple pane IG with LoE-180 on two panes on two panes and two 1/2" airspaces is .13 with SHGC of 56%.
The center-of-glass U factor for a low solar gain Cardinal triple pane IG with one layer of LoE-180 and one layer of LoE-366 and two 1/2" airspaces is also .13 with SHGC of 26%.
Not much difference U factor, a heck of a lot for SHGC.
Opting for 7/16" airspaces, the 180/180 U factor is .14 while the 366/180 remains at .13.
Adding I89 on surface 6 improves U factor on the 180/180 to U.12 and the 366/180 to U.11 at 1/2" airspace and both make-ups to .12 at 7/16".
Numbers are all available from the Cardinal Technical Glass Guide on their website.
Although these are center-of-glass, which is all glass not within 2 1/2" of the edge and not the "exact center", not seeing a lot of U-factor difference between the high solar gain and low solar gain options.
Innotech does offer the HSHG option, but not sure if they will sell outside the west coast (my windows were an exception at the time), and unfortunately all they offer is fixed and titl-turn options. What style windows are you looking for?
Best bet might be to find the window company that you like and tell them what you want. They may have no problem with it just that they don't widely advertise HSG because it's considered a niche product south of the border while Canadian window companies are typically more open about HSG option.
Also keep in mind that U-factor, VT, and SHGC are reflecting total window performance and not glass performance. While you might see the glass listed as 80% VT, the whole window might be at 56% because total window result includes non-glass components as well. Often European windows results for HSHG or VT look much better than North American, especially Euro windows that aren't NFRC listed, because they are offering glass-only performance versus total window performance.
"Also keep in mind that U-factor, VT, and SHGC are reflecting total window performance and not glass performance. While you might see the glass listed as 80% VT, the whole window might be at 56% because total window result includes non-glass components as well. Often European windows results for HSHG or VT look much better than North American, especially Euro windows that aren't NFRC listed, because they are offering glass-only performance versus total window performance."
Yup, that's why the NFRC tables for the same coatings and spacers are all over the place for different window styles. I used the narrowest frame fixed window with no SDLs when comparing specs for different coatings and glazing.
I’d love to see the prices on an average window from the various manufacturers you are getting quotes from.
Rough prices without tax, with delivery:
5x4 fixed vinyl Thermotech LoE 270 triple pane - $600
5x4 fixed vinyl Hayfield LoE (#2, #5) triple pane - $600
5x4 fixed fiberglass Enerlux LoE 270 triple pane - $1100
The overall package was about 40% more from Enerlux than Thermotech or Hayfield. Going to take a close look at the budget to see if I can swing the fiberglass option. In addition to the material difference, Enerlux offers high SHGC (.50), which would be nice on the south facing glazing.
Are you looking at Canadian Thermotech or US Thermo-Tech?
Enerlux also offers a triple with 180/180 rather than 270 with
-- U .14, SHCG .47, VT of 60%, and Condensation Resistance 60, or another with
-- U.16, SHGC 50, VT 62%, and CD of 73
The first option has I89 surface 4 coating the second does not otherwise identical. The performance differences offer a nice comparison when adding I89 or not.
US Thermo-Tech (Minnesota).
I have 4 south facing windows quoted with the 180/180 SHGC 50 glass at Enerlux.
I got 180 triples from Innotech in Canada.
I also have triples from Innotech (2006), but mine are 272 and I wish I had used 180 on the south side as I mentioned earlier.