GFCI & ARC fault circuits
fromPok
| Posted in General Questions on
Hello Electric Gurus, I recently submitted new single family dwelling permits. The office requires the permit to mark all GFCI & ARC Circuits
Show all gfci circuits
Show all arc fault circuits.
Can you please indicate where the ARC circuits are used? For GFCI, I believe it would be kitchen by sink, bathroom and any garage outlet below 18″
Thank you.
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Replies
From what I understand the newest version of the code requires AFC on almost every circuit that does not require GFI so almost every breaker will be one or the other and you could buy the combo breakers that do both.
What you are required to do is a very local question and depends on what code version your authority is enforcing.
Most places have an older code with GFIC in the kitchen, bathroom, garage and basement. AFC in bedrooms.
Note every one of these AFC breakers is a phantom load of 1.6-2 watts. You could have 50 or so in a large house.
Walta
fromPok,
Generally this is going to depend on your locality, as not all municipalities have adopted the same NEC versions, let alone made any modifications.
Generally,
In the latest codes, AFCI breakers (or receptacles) are required in most places that are 'livable'. That means bedrooms, living rooms, and practically anywhere but garages, kitchens, and bathrooms.
GFCI breakers (or receptacles) are required where a person may reasonably expect water to be within reach of the receptacle, or in kitchens where food is prepared, and on microwave circuits.
It's come to the point where most breakers have to be one or the other, and sometimes both.
GFCIs have been required for a long time on areas that might get wet. That typically includes kitchens, bathrooms, basements, garages, and outdoor receptacles. I prefer to use GFCI breakers for these circuits and not GFCI receptacles, since the breakers are more reliable over the long term. If you use GFCI breakers, you're supposed to put little "GFCI PROTECTED" stickers on the receptacles they serve, and the breakers typically include some of the stickers. I do use GFCI receptacles in bathrooms sometimes when the bathroom receptacle is tapped off of a circuit that primarily feeds something other than the bathroom.
AFCIs are usually required in bedrooms, but newer codes have been requiring them all over. I would ask your city building people where they want to see AFCIs because there is a lot more variation in the requirements for where you have to use AFCIs than there are for GFCIs. You do NOT want to use AFCIs anywhere you aren't required to, because they are expensive and they are notoriously unreliable.
Note that you may also be required to use "combo" breakers that are GFCI AND AFCI in some areas, likely bathrooms.
Bill
Consult with a local Electrical Contractor. They will know what code cycle is adopted in your area.
Thank you all. My town adopted the latest NY code, which means ARC pretty much every where.
What Panel do you recommend. I would like to have maximum slots in the panel box. 200 amp service.
Is this any good for 80 circuit breakers?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-200-Amp-40-Space-80-Circuit-Indoor-Main-Breaker-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center-with-Cover-Value-Pack-HOM4080M200PCVP/204836379
Note that "slots" or "spaces" and "circuits" are not the same thing. That panel you linked to has 40 spaces, but is listed as an "80 circuit" panel. That means you need to you 40 "skinny" breakers in there to get to 80 circuits. That's doable, but those panels are really stuffed if you try to squeeze that many circuits in there.
I would recommend you try to find a panel that has a copper bus (the one you linked to uses aluminum), as copper is better and usually costs about the same in panels like this. I would absolutely go with a 40 space panel, but not a 42 space, since a 42 space isn't balanced with a single phase service. I would NOT try to get significantly more than 40 circuits in one of these panels -- you're much better off using a subpanel instead, and putting some of your circuits into the subpanel instead of the main panel.
BTW, you can often save some money using Siemens panels instead of Square D. I usually design with Siemens stuff at work for that very reason. Quality levels are very similar between those two, as is availability of their respective products.
Bill
Bill - Thank you. You are very knowledgeable with electric. Appreciate your input. I will check into Siemens.
No problem, happy to help. A lot of my work is designing and overseeing the installation of critical power systems in large facilities. I work with this stuff very frequently.
Bill
Square D has 2 lines of panels “Homeline” and “QO” I think the QO line is worth the extra cost you get copper busses and heaver gage steel.
I see that Square D “Plug-On Neutral” with “No Pigtail” breakers that will eliminate one neutral wire for every ARC & GFI breaker.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-200-Amp-42-Space-52-Circuit-Indoor-Main-Breaker-Qwik-Grip-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center-with-Cover-Value-Pack-QO42M200PQCVP/320717873
Walta
Thank you all. One more question. What's the most economical way to go about this.. 50 breakers at $50 per breaker is $2500 just for breakers.. Lot of dough. Can I do something similar to GFCI where only one outlet is GFCI and feed the downstream from there aka Is there an AFCI receptacle I could use and feed the down stream outlets from that plug to contain costs?
Everything downstream of the breaker is protected by the breaker, regardless of the breaker being a GFCI, AFCI, or combo type. That's certain to be cheaper than putting lots of protected receptacles all over. Yes, you can use one GFCI receptacle to protect downstream receptacles BUT you MUST wire things correctly for that to work (the GFCI receptacle's instructions will tell you how).
Also, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS order all your breakers WITH THE PANEL! Manufacturers discount the breakers when you do this, and the savings are BIG. It's common commercially to order fully populated (all spaces filled with a breaker) panel even for panels that don't have that many circuits, since the breakers can be used in other locations. I don't think you can get this discount from the box stores, but you can from any of the electrical supply houses. Square D is probably the worst about gouging on breakers sold "loose", not in a panel. Siemens is probably the best about not doing that (as much, they still do it too, just not as bad).
And yes, the breakers are going to cost more than the panel they go in. It's like the old machinist's saying "If you thought the MACHINE was expensive, wait until you buy the TOOLING for it".
Bill
Bill - Good Morning. Thank you for detailed explanation. You are an expert.
To be clear.. Can I put a normal breaker and the first run to be an AFCI receptacle and rest to be normal receptacles? This could be cheaper by 30 bucks per breaker.
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