Getting an accurate price to build
Greetings! This is my first post on the forum; thanks in advance for the help. We are in the early stages of planning our new custom home (in Tucson, AZ, similar climate to Phoenix, so hot and dry with cooler nights). I’m just a person (not an architect, builder, or real estate professional), but have done a lot of research and have done a lot of DIY remodeling in the past.
We’ve met with two builders so far and neither interaction was the great. I’m looking for advice on how to salvage either relationship or how to avoid these mistakes for the next builder I talk to.
Builder #1: I approached him with my ideas (no plans), but he seemed like he only wanted to do things his way (I wanted extra insulated ICF, he wanted thermal mass solid masonry and argued it would perform better). He spent the rest of our time together telling me stories about houses he had built and famous people he’s worked with, and only took down a couple notes about my priorities. I walked away with no numbers and he actually never followed up with me after our meeting.
Builder#2: I approached him with plans and a list of modifications I wanted to the plans. When he first looked at the plans he said I should expect to pay about $200/sq ft. When I proposed modifications he said I would be looking more at $300/ sq ft., though my modifications weren’t necessarily more expensive (I actually cut about 200 sq ft. from the floor plan). I almost got the feeling he was just raising the price BECAUSE I wanted modifications, not because they cost more. He sounded very unenthusiastic about ICFs and told me they were “very expensive”. Also told me I needed to have a lot purchased before he would provide a detailed budget; something we are unwilling to do.
I don’t want to feel like I’m dragging around a wet blanket for this project, and I’d like to find a builder that is as excited about this plan as I am, or at least, who is excited about it at all.
I am not sure if I should approach the builder with full plans, or just a list of wants and a floorplan and let him draw the plans himself.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I would like to have a positive working relationship with my builder. Here are some of the details of our idea. I can provide sketchup drawings and building plans (though there are many changes needed to the plans, including layout, framing, HVAC, etc).
Wants:
-990 sq ft, 3 Bed, 1 3/4 bath – have layout drawn
-R-28 ICFs “Mikey Block” brand walls
-stucco siding with maybe 15% “modern siding”
-single slope unvented roof – R-60
-white reflective metal roofing material
-lots of windows. open to optimizing placement for reduced solar gain and open to using ?smart glass” on really critical windows
-slab on grade foundation with insulated slab edge
-polished concrete floors
-cheap IKEA kitchen
-all interior doors pocket doors
-all in one washer/dryer (unvented)
-greywater system and water harvesting
-single carport (no garage)
-mini-split heating/AC
Honestly, $300/sf sounds outrageous to me, but maybe I’m out of touch. I realize we’re splurging on glass and insulation, but everything else is pretty simple (foundation, roof, finishes, etc).
Nobody wants to work with me until I have a lot. I’m not willing to spend $150k on a lot until I have a builder, a plan, and a budget. I am at an impasse.
Looking forward to advice!
Lisa
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Replies
Lisa,
The best way to avoid these problems is a good set of architectural plans and specifications. Then there is no guesswork, no need to assumptions. The drawings should include allowances for things like site work and foundation depth which will alleviate the builder's concerns about unanticipated costs. They will also lay out what you want to do, stopping unnecessary back and forth about the builder's preferences.
You may still run into lots of people you don't want to work with, but at least everyone knows what is being anticipated.
Avoid custom builders unless you are made of money. See if you can get a tract builder to build it for you. They can build for less than $70/square feet. Use the money saved to buy solar panels.
Really, just go standard construction + extra air sealing. You can easily save $200,000+ over custom construction and you can buy a hell of a lot of solar panels for $200,000.
It isn't unreasonable for builders to be uninterested in building a house that at present is merely hypothetical. It costs time to meet with potential clients and time is money.
I'd buy the lot, get reasonably specific plans and then find a builder, preferably by getting recommendations from people who have used him or her. A good architect is invaluable. Cramming three bedrooms and two baths into less than a thousand square feet will take some creativity. And it msy make more sense to focus on what you want and need rather than size.
W
Prices per square foot are hard to compare, especially without the lot. A nice flat lot close to everything will be cheaper than one in the middle of nowhere on a steep slope. Moreover, what gets included in such an estimate varies. Do you include site work? Design fees? Appliances?
And of course a small house, other things being equal, costs more per square foot than a bigger one.
As for tract builders, by definition they aren't going to build your custom house to your specs.
It should be easy to find someone enthusiastic about a project like this, but in practice it's not. But if you think it's a long and painful process to find a builder who you are enthusiastic about, that's nothing compared to the long and painful process it is to work with a builder who you don't like and who doesn't want to build the way you want to do it. So even though you are presumably eager to get going, it's very much worth the time to keep looking.
Malcolm's right that getting a complete set of plans done is worth it. Whoever does that for you could also be a resource for finding builders.
I hadn't seen "Mikey Block" ICF before. From a quick look, it looks like a smart system. I'm not sure how expensive it is to build with; your builders might not be sure either. Have you tried contacting Mikey Block to see if there are contractors in your area who have used it?
Thanks for all the great advice so far.
Stephen, I understand where you / builders are coming from. Alternatively, I am nervous to invest $150k in acquiring a lot with no builder, timeline, or building budget. Can I create a relatively accurate budget on my own before contacting a builder so that I can get a rough estimate of cost? Is there some sort of rule of thumb, like materials +20% for labor (for example)? I've had people tell me not to expect anything under $200/ft without knowing anything about the plans.
Charlie,
I have contacted Mikey Block and he has told me that the cost of goods for a Mikey wall is about $7.80/sq ft, includes everything (even grout), minus the field labor. He also said "Using our system, a 40 x 50 ft house could be stacked to 6 ft high in about 8 hours by 2 people. Grouting that 1st lift would be about 3 hours in addition". Sounds pretty cheap and efficient for what you get (R-28 with some thermal mass effect). Mikey Block said he knows of contractors in the area that are familiar with his product and could make recommendations, but again wanted me to have the lot already.
I return to the issue of being unwilling to buy a lot without some kind of relationship and budget with a builder. Is this an unrealistic expectation?
It sounds like everyone is recommending I get official plans before expecting even a rough budget. I can make that investment upfront, any idea how much plans should cost me? Should the designer be willing to go back and alter plans after potential builder modifications?
Thanks again,
Lisa
Lisa. I think that any price you will get without having detailed plans and without a specific location will be a price you can't really rely on. Any house design should fit the lot and you may want to make changes to accommodate views or topographic features. I still think you need to buy the lot first. If you expect to spend $200k for a 1000 square foot house, yoy can certainly build one for that price in most places.
Lisa,
Why don't you get your real-estate agent to present an offer on the lot conditional on getting your plans approved by a certain date? Then both you and the developer have some skin in the game. They know you are serious and spending some money to proceed, and you have tied up the lot you want until you see whether your plans are viable.
Malcolm-
That's a very good idea, and something I'll definitely craft into lot offers in the future (offer contingent on site approval by engineer/builder). The problem here is, that depending on location and proximity to amenities a lot might be anywhere from $50k-200k. If I'm not sure where our house falls in the $60/ft-$300/ft range, that's anywhere from $60k-$300k for the house alone, which is a GIANT range. Getting a better idea about the price will help us budget for the land that we can afford.
I mean, is it outrageous to expect a contractor to spend an hour of his time inputting some basics to provide me with an estimate? Subcontractors regularly provide free estimates for their work, and often invest an hour or two driving to sites and taking measurements to do so, for much smaller projects. I'm just confused as to why such an expensive project should be any different.
Stephen-
I agree about the pricing not being specific without plans. Most lots around the area we are looking are flat, or mostly flat, without much vegetation (we are in a desert after all). I guess having plans drawn first makes sense, but it's also hard to have plans drawn without knowing cost trade-offs for decisions (i.e. do you want raked walls or flat? well, raked sounds nicer but how much is that going to cost? That's a builder question, not a designer question... I guess I can just specify everything to the architect and then ask the builder how much it would be to change things?
Lisa,
I cost projects for customers and couldn't give you anything remotely accurate from your unmodified plans and wish lists. We would have to sit down and spend a lot of time narrowing down what you are actually wanting to build.
You are asking for a lot more than an hour of the builder's time to do this. Should he perform the work without compensation? That's up to him, I wouldn't. What many builders are doing is charging for estimates and reimbursing the cost if they get the job.
Try and approach this from the builder's perspective. The items on your wish list could vary in cost by a several hundred percent depending on the quality you settle on. "Cheap" Ikea kitchens vary wildly. What you see as intransigence is an experienced trade trying not to lose their shirt when expectations differ.
Malcom,
Thanks for the insight; that actually makes a lot of sense and is good to hear the opinion of someone who is in the business.
I'm going to fork over the money for the plans with an architect and come to the builder with them. If he suggests cost saving options or upgrades based on the plans, we can go from there. Would you be comfortable getting someone an estimate if they came to you with official building plans but no lot yet?
Lisa, you might want to buy a copy of RSMeans Residential Cost Data.
https://www.amazon.com/RSMeans-Residential-Cost-Data-2016/dp/1943215162
It will give you some idea how much assemblies and types of construction cost. For example the version I have (2012) has 1/3 of a page on ICFs showing how many blocks a two man crew might stack in a day, how long per block, how much the block might cost, and labor costs.
I know 1/3 of a page on ICFs doesn't seem like a lot of info. Some of the "newer" / "atypical" technologies are a little under reported; there was only a 1/2 page on SIPs for example.
Sections in the front of the book give examples of typical stick or masonry built construction expense for Average, Custom, and Luxury homes. They are laid out in easy to understand broad brush square footage format with modification and adjustment factors below.
There are positive and negative geographic area price adjustment factors in a table in the back.
Worth every bit of the $210 to get a sense how things are often priced out, how long they take, etc. (And then as we used to say in NYC construction, double everything...)
Edit: I see the reference desk at the Pima County Library has it: https://pima.bibliocommons.com/item/show/1448137091_residential_cost_data?active_tab=bib_info
Lisa,
My work is split fairly evenly between design and construction. I have never designed a house without a site because the site is one of the largest determinants of what the design should include. Now that isn't the way most housing is built. Most production housing comes from plan books and is dropped onto the site with little reference to it's surroundings. But if you are going to the trouble of building a custom house, the design should probably take a lot of its clues from where it is situated.
@ Malcolm
If i buy a design that has prices for construction how did they come up with that?
Here is an example, though you need to make a free account to get prices
http://beaverhomesandcottages.ca/
Alan,
I think Beaver Homes works in collaboration with a lumber chain. Aren't they essentially selling kits much as Sears used to do in the early 1900's? Even so, given the volatility of material costs I'm surprised they can offer fixed prices without amending them frequently.
When I send something designed for a client out to several prospective builders for bids I include allowances and assumptions to try and minimize possible grey areas. So I call out the allowance for cabinetry, plumbing and lighting fixtures, etc. and assume an excavation depth of say, 4'-0". If the client chooses things that either under or exceed the specified allowances, the price they pay is what they actually end up costing - the allowances try and hit a mid-point - their purpose is primarily so that competing builders are all bidding the same job. Similarly if the excavation reveals problems that necessitate more work, the client has to pay for it.
There are countless alternatives from Cost-Plus to Fixed-Price. It's a balancing act. The more the client wants to push the risk for unforeseen circumstances or possible upgrades onto the builder, the more the builder has to pad their contract to ensure whey aren't going to end up with no profit. A completely different model is the integrated design/build one where one firm assumes both roles, coming up with both the design, costs and responsibility for construction. The are some good reasons to choose that. The potential downside is that the architect's role has traditionally been to insure the owner's interests during the build. When the designer is also the builder there is no one to champion the owner if disputes arise.
It's very possible that RS Means provides good data for some custom builders, but it's never come close to the costs I've incurred; it always looked to me to be focused on tract builders, not custom. As Malcom said, we've started using a preliminary contract when the potential clients are looking for more information than we are able or willing to provide; where they agree to pay me an hourly rate for the prep work. You might find a contractor that uses them; it solves the builders problem of working for nothing and provides a valuable service to buyers like yourself. (After that we sign a fixed price contract.)
In regards to your ICF product - the estimated costs you got from the manufacturer might be meaningless, or they might be right on for an experienced installer. If there is no one in your area that has used them, then it is your responsibility to pay whatever it costs to install the product, and if no one has experience, I'd expect a very high price. The alternative is to find a local contractor that has used a similar product and use that instead. A perfect product is useless if no one knows how to use it.
@Malcolm
I do expect its basically a kit, but it makes my point, if you know the purchase price of materials and the labour needed to install it you can provide pricing. I do hope they update them frequently, i like accuracy.
I understand the OP wants a custom product which will mean a custom price, but a ballpark is achievable, and of course i would only hire someone with experience in that type of building, hiring someone who does stick frame to do ICF for the first time just won't work in price or craftsmanship.
Allan,
Look at what the kits include - or rather exclude: A foundation, site work and services, finished floors, stairs, kitchens and other cabinetry, tile or other interior finishes, electrical rough-in and fixtures, plumbing and fixtures, fireplaces and chimneys, railings, ventilation, whatever heat source is used - and most importantly the cost of the labour to build the house.
They also specifically exclude in the price the cost of any changes for differing code requirements - which here in coastal BC would mean rain-screen and extensive changes to meet seismic provisions.
All Beaver has done is pinned down the quality of the things they are going to provide. I can't see how you could even get a ballpark figure for a build from just the cost of the kit
I'm not claiming you pay that price and your good to go, i am saying pricing is possible
How? All the exclusions are huge variables. What they know is what the material costs from their own lumberyards for the few things they provide are. They represent a very small proportion of the total costs. How do you price a house from that?
Your joking, right, you can't price out any trades or materials based on plans?
Not even ballpark?
Alan,
I'll take one last stab at this.
The last road I built on had two adjunct lots. I designed both houses but only built one. The cost to provide power to the houses from the already installed lines varied between $1,500 and $8,500. The price of the excavations and foundations for the smallest exceeded the largest by a wide factor. So far we are only talking about some of the so-called "fixed costs", not those influenced by the owner's preferences. They were completely dictated by the location of transformers and soil conditions.
The floor finishes for one were in the region of $30,000 and the kitchen was over 20G. The other spent less that $15,000 for both combined. I wouldn't even have been able to get a good rough-in electrical or plumbing price without knowing what fixtures the owners were planning to install, never mind one that included finishing.
Sure I could look at the Beaver Plans and say "I can build something like that for $170 a square foot." As long as I don't mind ending up in court when the client turns around and says that wasn't quite what I was expecting. Go back to the OP's wish list. what does a "grey water system" consist of? How do you price the roof, or any of the other things based on the descriptions? Builders who can work with that level of vagueness would be smart to put their assets in their wife's name.
I'm not saying you can price 30K floors before they are chosen or determine excavation costs without a lot, but you can price details that are provided, if i choose $1/sq ft laminate or 30K of marble for a 1000sqft of floor you can certainly tell me the price will be different by 29k for material, right?
I am not saying you can give a finished price based on no lot, no plans and no finishes, i am saying given a floor plan, finishes and assuming the house will be placed on land you can come up with something, or at least say the house and finished will be X (plus or minus whatever percent) and excavation/foundation will start at at least Y given perfect conditions, but no detailed quote until the lot is selected and inspected. Even if you omit the excavation thats fine, site dependent.
Of course you would want more details, ask the customer what they mean by grey water or green roof or post modern whatever.
If i want to know ballpark or at least a starting point 250k would be very different then 1 million dollars.
Alan,
I think you are suggesting the same thing I described in the second paragraph of post #14. You can certainly get fairly good ballpark prices from plans and comprehensive specifications as I suggested in post #1.
What I can't see how you do is get them from what Beaver Homes supplies.
Just to clarify, for most of the items on my list I have specifics for what I want. E.g. the greywater system just means I want the toilets piped to the sewer main and everything else piped to the pump/filter/cistern so that it can be later used for landscape irrigation.
I'm not coming to the builder and saying "How much does a greywater system cost?" with no idea about what I want. Alan's concerns are the same thoughts I was having when I was unable to get ballpark pricing.
Lisa,
Your clarification proves my point. What a builder needs to be able to pin down are the size, materials and locations (above or below ground) of the cisterns, pumps, types of filtration and what happens to excess overflow. What you are giving them now is analogous to saying "I want a full length summer dress fro my daughter's prom. How much will it cost?"
Alan and Lisa,
The discussion is becoming a bit circular. If what I've written so far hasn't clarified things, I don't think I can add anything which will lead anywhere fruitful. Hopefully some other posters can be of some help.
Malcom,
I did say that I have existing plans that I want modifications to (the "wish list items" are the modifications). The existing plans have a water harvesting system that specifies filter, cistern, and pump. To tie in the greywater I literally just need to know how much it would be to pipe the fixtures separately from the toilets. I know that if I went to a plumber with this request he could get me a bid. That isn't the issue. The issue (that I thought we had agreed on previously) is that asking a builder to get me a number for the whole house would require an order of magnitude more work than getting a bid for one part of the system.
Anyway, I do have the information to get an accurate bid (minus allowances for siting) but it looks like it would be time prohibitive for most builders to get excited about, which is why I am going to get full plans before wasting anyone's time.
Is that a fair assessment?
You can do custom modular home. I received a quote on a Triplex - 3 bed - 1 bath each unit - for under 200k. Gave them my plans and they gave simple answer. Just needed site prep and foundation work added to the cost. I could add air sealing/insulation before they installed the siding on site.
Building a home on site has so many variables. KISS the problem will save a lot of headaches. Good luck.