Floor Plan Critique Requested
I am hopeful that some members can give some feedback on a design that I have been working on. Any criticism or comments are welcome be they be about room sizing, layout, designing for passive house-ness, etc…
My wife and I are planning to start construction on our primary residence in Campton, New Hampshire (on the southern edge of the White Mountains). Our aim is to build a ‘darn good’ house. The construction will be done by myself, wife and a good friend helping with framing.
Attached are floor plans that I have created using Live Home 3D.
The home is pretty basic, 1 story with full basement.
Some comments for context:
– The full basement is needed for my work as a guitar/bass builder.
– The orientation of the floor plan -> UP = North.
– I’ve put the majority of glazing on the south side, and have tried to design for actual living (meaning windows where we are awake, and less for where we sleep). Bedrooms each have a single window.
– The west side will likely have a breezeway to a garage.
– Roof will run east to west with PV array.
– Likely a 9/12 roof pitch with a vented attic assembly
– In the basement, you’ll see a window. This is an emergency exit light well.
– I’ve located the bedroom/office and mechanical room in a way that a potential renter would not have access to the remainder of the basement. This may have to change as electrical service may need to enter from the west side of the house. (Our future intent is to rent the home to 6-month ski season renters at some point).
– Likely use an air source heat exchanger for heat
– Will take out time to air seal to get close to passive ACH standards
Thanks in advance ~ Brian
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Replies
Looks "Pretty Good" to me, Brian! A few pieces of constructive criticism:
In the living room, adding a window on the east wall near the south corner will make the room feel a lot bigger and brighter. Consider moving the living room window closer to the corner as well. Here's one I designed that has a similar layout.
It's really nice to have a window in a bathroom when possible.
Walk-in closets use a lot more floor area than traditional closets.
It's a bit far for guests to get from the guest bedroom to the guest bathroom, but that may not be a primary concern.
I avoid having bathrooms right next to dining rooms, for hopefully obvious reasons...
In the basement, it looks like your stair projects into the shop doorway. You need a minimum 3' landing at the bottom.
Ideally the mechanical room would be closer to the kitchen and bathrooms.
Overall it looks like a practical and pleasant home. These are just some ideas that might make it even better.
Thanks Michael - I really agree on the extra window on the east side at the living room corner. Good thoughts about the window in the master bathroom, I'll add that in. Agreed on the walk in closet being a space hog - Aiming now for a walk through closet to the bathroom. A friend is staying with us and he very much agreed on the bathroom/dining room proximity and cited some uncomfortable moments when he has been a guests at other friend's homes. I think I have a 3' landing at the basement - Live Home 3D design software doesn't scale stairways so well....so if I want a 4' wide stairwell, the lenght also increases. Great suggestions all around.
Fun process!
In addition to what Michael said about how the stairs appear to be positioned, I would definitely think about even more than a 3' landing at the bottom of the stairs, because you might need the maneuverability to get equipment down there.
Agreed Patrick. I think the space would be larger. Copying from my reply to Michael - Live Home 3D design software doesn't scale stairways so well....so if I want a 4' wide stairwell, the length also increases.
So north is at the top and you have no windows at all on the east and west sides of the house? I know it is desirable to have the majority of windows on the south side and you said that you placed more windows in rooms where you will be awake rather than in rooms where you will be asleep but you also have to consider the path of the sun during the day and where in the house you will be during certain times of the day.
In the morning you want sun in the kitchen, breakfast area and primary bedroom. In the afternoon the kitchen, dining area and living room. In the evening the dining room and the living room. From the living room you want access to a deck or patio on the west side to enjoy the sunset.
Your house plan needs to be flipped left to right in order to take advantage of the sun's path throughout the day - and the garage should go off from the northeast corner of the house.
Why no doors to the south? No plans for a deck or patio? If you're going to rent this house out to skiers then you should think of as many ways as possible for them to connect to the outdoors - decks, hot tubs, fire-pits, sauna?
As to the layout, you don't need a big coat closet if you have a mudroom right across from it. The master bathroom should be on the exterior wall with a window - do you really need that massive walk-in master closet? The guest bath is too far away from the guest bedroom and the door shouldn't open into a main living space.
I think you should decide if you want it to be more of a family home with a downstairs rental suite or an Air B&B for skiers - because they're gonna want to party and therefore the design will have to be a lot different.
Thanks for your thoughts Rockies63.
- For my wife and I, the kitchen is not the place we begin our day actually...usually don't do much in there untill after 10:30 am, but I think your thoughts are worth considering for resale - same with mstr bedroom light...that would be nice to have in the morning on the east side of the building. After building on the north slope of a mountain, and underclearing the lot (a build from when we were 20 years younger), simply having southern light coming into the kitchen seems like a joy.
- Having the garage to the northeast may be tricky on our lot, but possible. I am giving this some serious thought. The drive comes into the lot from the southwest, and with a likely loft above the garage for a long-term renter, my idea was to not have them drive across the front of the house...but that preference may be worth overlooking.
- RE: No doors to the south....Was planning to do a deck off the east side with a hot tub and have a shed roof come off the gabled end. Along with the previous bullet, it may be worth swapping this to the west side. I will say that when we have had a hot tub in the past, we have used it in the morning as much as the evening. At our previous place, we had the hot tub on the front porch. I like having it out of the elements under a cover, but I won't do a front porch - I've read Malcolm's posts on changing roof line (bad) and quite agree.
- Agreed on the big coat closet, mstr bath with a window on exterior wall, and that the big walk in closet isn't necessary...going to convert to a walk through closet.
- Regarding AirBnB vs. family home...Not aiming for AirBnB but long term 184 day rentals for skiier families. Two different things, not that they don't overlap in desires.
Thanks again
Thanks to you all! This is exactly the kind of feedback that needed to see.
Lots of things to chew on here…and I look forward to working on the next draft.
One more comment: make all of your exterior walls thicker. It looks like you have 6" walls above grade and 8" walls below grade, which wouldn't meet Pretty Good House recommendations in any climate zone, certainly not in NH. When doing schematic designs I usually start with 12" walls and reduce them only when absolutely necessary. Foundations are best insulated on the interior; I typically use 2" rigid foam and 2x4 framed walls, which adds 6" to the walls. You can get away with thinner assemblies but at absolute minimum you should have R-15 foam, which can be 3" of white-faced Thermax without additional finishes. Alternatively, you can add foundation insulation to the exterior, but it needs to extend to the top of the foundation wall and be protected with something.
Good call Michael - I think wall size is a pretty easy change in the Live Home 3D software. I am considering two wall systems (for above ground).
1. Double stud wall with blown cellulose
2.2x6 wall with blown cellulose and 2" of rigid on the outside
I suspect you have an opinion and I'd love to hear it. I lean towards the Double Stud wall.
Thanks for your thoughts on the interior assembly for the basement. I have done it differently in my younger days and like what you are doing much more.
By the way, I found your book on Amazon. Probably give it a read through in the coming days.
I always recommend double stud walls (done properly: https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/insulation/a-case-for-double-stud-walls) over any assembly with foam, but when lowest cost is a primary concern, I also do exterior foam insulation. 2" of polyiso over a 2x6 wall is a bare minimum for condensation control; you would need more if using XPS or EPS. Maybe by the time you're ready to build, TimberHP rigid wood fiber will be available; it's supposed to come in with competitive pricing.
I hope you find the PGH book to be helpful!
Thanks Michael - I've updated to include the 12" walls...and really like the double stud assembly. A few months ago, I saw a couple videos with Ben Bogie discussing these. Good stuff!
Does the shop door really overlap the stairs?
I thought a 36 inch landing was the minimum allowed at the base of the stairs.
Is there a second shop entrance? Dragging large heavy stuff in the front door, thru the Livingroom, down the stairs, around a sharp corner and thru a narrow door does not sound like a good plan.
Consider putting outside entrance to the shop, a window or 2 and a ruffed in bathroom. The next owner will have a very different idea of what that space should be.
Putting the mechanical room on the corner make the ductwork bigger and longer consider putting in the center.
Walta
Thanks for your comments, Walta.
Regarding the landing size - Live Home 3D design software doesn't scale stairways so well....so if I want a 4' wide stairwell, the length also increases. I believe the math works out to landing that is larger than 3’.
I’ve considered adding a bulkhead entrance to the basement. I see the main challenge there in solid air sealing and insulation. Maybe bulkheads have come a ways since I last visited someone with one, but they seem like energy sucks. Indeed it will be a chore to get tools down into the basement. All the tools I use are fairly small and manageable with 4’ wide stairs.
I’ll do a layout with the mechanical room in the center. Since the well also comes in from the south (center most likely), this should be doable.
Bulkheads haven't changed much. You need to add an insulated, air-tight exterior door at the foundation wall if you use one.
Hello. Here are my suggestions for your main floor layout. First though, since building materials like plywood and OSB are 4’ by 8’ in size you should make the overall dimensions of your house 32’ x 46’ instead of 31’ by 45’ 10”. I would add the extra foot of width to the mudroom, kitchen, dining room and living room.
I moved the entire kitchen and the mudroom’s “laundry wall” to the right by 24” so you can have a seating bench and storage cubbies on the left wall. If you want even more storage on the mudroom’s right wall you could do a stacked washer/dryer with a base cabinet next to it and an upper cabinet for laundry supplies and still have room for ski storage (all that gear has to go somewhere). I would also add an 18” to 24” deep, tall broom closet cabinet (like the ones you can get from Ikea) into the mudroom somewhere (everyone always forgets to include a broom closet).
The kitchen is still the same size but the peninsula has been shortened so that it doesn’t stick out into the main hallway and block the circulation path from the side door. The dining room and living room remain the same size, although I changed the dining room window to outswing French Doors and slid the living room’s exterior door south by 6” to have a bit more clearance between it and the built-in display cabinets.
The main bedroom is about 5” shorter (north to south) in order to add in the dividing wall between the 2’ deep main closet and the 1’ deep built-in pantry cabinets in the main hallway (you don’t need a huge, deep closet for coats and a pantry when you have that large mudroom right across from it). I shortened the east/west width of the main bedroom closet and pantry by about 6” so that the entry to the main bedroom doesn’t feel “tight”. As to the design of the “pantry wall” I would suggest full height pantry cabinets with shelves for the left half (extending behind the exterior side door when it’s open) and a base cabinet with counter and upper cabinets on the right half so you have a place to set down keys, phones, etc. In the main bedroom the bed will go on the north wall facing the door.
I slid the main bathroom north so that there could be a window over the tub (not my favorite solution for a bathroom window but that’s the only layout I can see working) – vanity across from the door, tub/shower in the alcove and toilet between the tub and vanity. By sliding the main bathroom north you also gain a separate powder room.
Now I know what your wife will say when she sees this plan – “But I’m losing my walk-in closet!” Well, not really. In the original plan your walk-in closet was 5’ wide by 12’ 10” long. However, you only would have been able to run hanging rods and shelves down one side of the room (which need 24” of depth) so that means that you had a 3’ wide by 13’ long area of empty floor just to access the clothes. That amounts to 39 sq’ of wasted space and only about 25 sq’ of usable space. The shallower closet I suggest is 2’ deep by about 10’ long so that’s 20 sq’ of usable space. With a great closet organizing system you’ll never notice the difference. The other thing is, walking into a long, narrow closet that doesn’t have a window (and is loaded with clothes) can feel claustrophobic, but a closet roughly the same size that opens onto a bright, sunny bedroom will “feel” not only larger but more accessible.
So the main bedroom and bathroom widths are the same as before, but the stairs have been moved to the left. I would suggest that since they are visible from the main living areas to try to make them fit in with the overall design of the living room rather than just being a means to get down to the basement workshop.
In the guest bedroom I moved the section of the left wall (with the door in it) back one foot and combined what had been that bedroom’s walk-in closet with part of the main bedroom’s walk-in closet to create the guest bathroom (with a window!). The guest bedroom’s closet is now where the stairs originally were and the guest bedroom’s door is moved to the southwest corner of the room so you can walk from the door to the bathroom without having to go around the bed.
Lastly, I added some built-ins on the north side of the living room (which can be either for displaying objects and photos or can be bookcases).
Of course, final window sizes and locations will be based on the room’s furniture arrangement and your own personal preferences but you may want to eliminate the two north facing windows flanking the bed in the main bedroom due to energy concerns from them being on the north facade.
Now, when I altered this plan I left it in its original orientation so you could more easily compare the changes I’ve suggested to your own design but personally, I would flip the plan left to right so that the living room is on the west side for views of the sunset. If you do flip the plan I would suggest placing the garage on the northeast corner so that it will be near the mudroom for easy access but that’s up to you.
Let me know if you have any questions!
Wow Rockies63...Thanks for all your suggestions and mocking up that design, you've cleaned up my mess :) I'll review with my wife tomorrow and get back with some questions.
rockies63,
Good stuff as usual!
I wish the entrances to the bedrooms and powder room could be re-oriented so they weren't accessed directly from the more public spaces, but in such a small house that would probably come at the expense of room sizes.
Good changes, Rockies. You could move the master bedroom door to align with the interior of the bedroom closet, leaving a small vestibule, and move the powder room door to that vestibule.
The basement stairs could be L-shaped, taking a bit of space from the guest closet.
Nice, I wonder if it would make sense to flip the guest bath and closet with guest bedroom and delete powder room, access guest bath next to exterior door and have closet in upper right corner. The house seems too small to have two and half bath and guest room does not need its own bath access.
Alternatively, you could use stair width for guest bedroom closet and have alcove in bedroom for desk behind bath
I like this idea. Will post my most recent design shortly. Agreed that having 2.5 baths on the single floor is too much for the size of the house.
Firstly, thank you for the extended time you have put into both writing your thoughts and drawing a plan. It is really appreciated. My wife and I dug through this piece by piece to create the next version shown down below. Your comments and plan have really caused us to think through certain aspects of the design more deeply and with a different perspective, which is truly what I was hoping for.
4x8’ dimensions - That make sense. I don’t know why I didn’t think of that.
Mudroom - I like the bench and possibility for cubbies.. And good point on the broom closet area…that and convenient vacuum storage are good to consider.
Kitchen/Dining - Bringing the island in is good. I can see the desire to have the French doors on that south side. I haven’t added it to my plan, but am thinking about it. I’d like to keep the roof simple and all in the same plane, with the exception being an shed roof coming out from one of the gable ends to cover the hot tub and porch area that would be located on the east side (more on the orientation in a bit). I’ve never been crazy about having uncovered stairs, and feel that having the French doors would force the addition of an awning or something in the front.
Closet space etc… - Thanks for your point of view here. I (and my wife) have been brought over to your perspective. We had a larger build in closet in the last house and while the other space was good, it wasn’t necessary, and it wasn’t all used…Though I thoroughly enjoyed building all of the built-ins. Also, you got us thinking about the pantry space a little differently and that forced us to measure some of the simple appliances (Instapot, Stand Mixer, etc…) that we thought would go in to a pantry and resize the depth quite a bit.
East/West orientation - Attached is a snap shot of the site plan provided to the state for Septic Design approval. You’ll see how the drive comes in from the west. Our intention (not this summer, but likely ’25 or ’26) is to frame and finish the garage. We are hoping to do a garage loft ADU as a long term rental. Having the garage on the west side would keep that renter from passing in front of the house and give us some additional privacy (both for the front of the house, but also the porch hot tub area). That is how that placement was chosen. We can likely flip the garage and house with only an amendment with the state (not a full redesign of the septic plan). The idea of having a porch area with hot tub and outdoor table/chairs on the west side is appealing, especially since the lot slopes off to that side which gives it a raised sort of feel that is nice. That is the trade off we are debating: ideal porch location vs. privacy. We’d prefer to have the hot tub covered, and not wanting different roof pitches, we have not entertained having the hot tub on the north or south sides of the house.
How do you plan to translate that to construction drawings suitable for permits?
Good question - In our town, we do not need a lot for the building permit. There is no building inspector, however I want to have a complete-enough set of plans for myself and the friend who will help us frame, order trusses, and much more. I've used freelancers fairly successfully in the past.
I would put in at least a two piece bath (full bath even better) in the basement.
Even if it means more window wells, some windows in the work area are always better than no windows, just being able to see something other than a wall is good for the soul.
If you do want to rent the basement eventually, making it a walkout with a small patio area (terraced if well bellow grade) is a good option.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. I believe you are correct on windows and natural light being good for the soul. A little tough to make get much light out of them in a house that doesn't have a walk out however.
No goal of renting out the basement as a stand alone. I do want to have a long term rental unit above the garage, but that is a year or two out.
I'll see what is currently available for basement windows...the ones I had in a previous build were not great....and likely lost a lot of heat through them.
I have my workshop in the basement which has 8 windows. I'm in the city with tight setbacks and lot of them look onto my neighbor's brick walls but even still, I would not give any of them up.
One trick to get a bit more basement window height is to move the window header into the bottom of the wall above the window. You can than frame the floor joists around it as a mini stair opening which means you can reclaim most of the floor thickness as extra height. A bit more design work and framing up front but depending on your floor thickness it might get you 6" to 10" extra window height which can be huge. It might also mean no window well need, so saves extra cost there.
Also since it is a new build, you can always change the grade a bit or raise the foundation .
Very interesting, could you attach a shot of what the windows look like from the inside?
Any recommendation on window brand/model for this?
Here is the raised basement window. In this case outside grade was pretty close so without doing this, there would have been no way to add light to the space. It is still a very small window but better than no window at all.
There is no special window needed for this, it is about framing around it to allow for the extra space.
Be sure you understand the requirements for egress and emergency escape and rescue openings in basements--sections R310 and R311: https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2018/chapter-3-building-planning#IRC2018_Pt03_Ch03_SecR310. Even if you aren't required to meet codes, they are a well-established minimum safety standard.
Adding to Michael's advice on egress openings, they really help at time of resale as the realtor can list the space as a bedroom or ready to go as one.
Thanks for that link - bookmarked.
The basement guest room window to the east seems to be directly under the main level entrance. How will that work?
Likely install a grate similar to the one in the photo. Can be popped out from underneath. I'd not aim for it to be directly under the door on the first floor. Next step is re-designing the basement layout.
Malcolm & Michael: I tried creating a vestibule entry to the main bedroom and putting the powder room door on the left wall but in order to have enough space for the door I'd have to move the wall with the main bedroom closet doors further north and then the main bedroom door (which would be aligned with the closet door wall) would interfere with the main bathroom door when open and so it just created nothing but awkward problems. While not ideal, I think the powder room door opening across from the kitchen peninsula is better than the original guest bathroom door opening across from the dining table (I suspect that the reason the guest bathroom was originally where it was was so it could also be used as a powder room).
The main challenge with the layout is that the "front door" is also the left side door so not only does the entry space have to be beautiful for guests but it also has to handle all of the daily chores like bringing in groceries, handling kids with backpacks and wet shoes, etc. Therefore, I would suggest using either a pocket door (with frosted glass inserts) or a sliding barn door to close off the mudroom on occasions when you want a more formal looking entry.
You could technically turn the right exterior door into the living room into a formal entry but then you'd have to section it off a bit from the living room, add a bench and closet and then figure out how to get access to both doors from the driveway.
Thanks All for your comments. It is been very helpful in my planning.
Here is the latest version.
- I think I have the guest bath far enough away from living/dining area that it really shouldn't be to much of a problem.
-The guest bath design is not one that I can say I have seen personally, but I am not sure why it would not work.
-Probably much more I could say, but the pdf says more.
That looks a lot better to me! I've designed similar pantries on a couple of projects and they worked exceptionally well.
You might consider making the mudroom 1' shorter so the entry hall can be 5' wide. Keep the fridge wall where it is. As a main entrance, the extra foot will feel much more generous, if you can afford to lose a bit of storage space.
You might consider moving the master bedroom door to align with the bedroom side of the closet wall. The inset will make the hallway feel less like a hallway, and the bedroom a little more like a destination.
I have done similar layouts to your guest bathroom, but I have only oriented the toilet that way when there wasn't room to have it the other way. I would rotate yours 90°. The IRC requires 21" clear in front of the toilet and even that feels pretty tight in practice.
The space between the dining table and sofa is a little tight. It's good to have 5' of space there if possible, though I have reduced that to 4' and it's ok. I would not go less than 4'.
5'-6" in your kitchen is pretty wide between counters. I think you could reduce that by a foot and actually have a more functional kitchen.
Thanks, Michael - Great stuff. I appreciate your guidance a lot. The attached version has all of those ideas implemented - at least as I understand them. If I have misunderstood anything, please set me straight.
My wife had said the same thing about the 5-6' in the kitchen between counters. I have decreased that to 4'...but to be frank, I am unsure of the kitchen design. Some words to come in the response to Malcolm below.
The only change is that I'd move the other side of the mudroom wall--next to the washing machine, I believe--in to match the side near the door.
I often end up with an L-shaped kitchen with island; it's a very flexible arrangement, but yours is pretty small. I preferred your galley layout. I'd put the stove on the fridge wall and the sink on the peninsula. But the L-shape would also work. I usually aim for 40-44" between counters and islands; 4' is pretty generous.
Beardoh,
Much better. With a few tweaks, like the ones Michael suggested, I think you are pretty close.
I would lay out the kitchen before going any further. Where are the range and sink located?
That is a good idea. Taking a look at some example kitchens using Lowe's kitchen designer, both my wife and I like the look of this one and think that it could work.
Island location is different here. Maybe the open feel would be nice.
Really great evolution of your floor plans. I think you may need to check your door sizes in the most recent layout. In particular to the guest bath.
Also, regarding your stair scale problem, check the math like this, floor to floor in inches / 7 = number of risers. 1 fewer tread than risers, riser length 11" gives you total stair length.
Example 10' floor to floor: 120/7=17.14 round up to 18r (120 / 18 = 6.66" risers) 17t @11" = 187" (15'-7") total stair run. Residential codes allow steeper stairs, but you see the idea. Also remember to check for head height when the stair runs under a room. Number of risers before header x riser height - floor thickness. Need 6'8" clear min in Residential if memory serves.
Thanks...an evolution indeed. My plans from a previous build (2005) are in a folder in my mother's home and she is not there at the moment. A lot of the feel for spacing has been from pulling out a tape at a rental my wife and I are in down in south central Mexico. Things are done differently here. At least a dozen times I have asked myself why I didn't grab those old building plans. They were done by an architect and have lots of 'rules of thumb' built in. A few things were not planned correctly in that house - particularly stairs. I am 6'5" and some of the tread to ceiling heights didn't accommodate me well (some brain cells lost and plenty of seeing stars running down the stairs) as well as some design of scissor stairs.
Residential code allows 10" min tread and 7.75" max riser, so in the version of your plan with 10'4" open above the stair and max rise min run you would have 12 treads and 13 risers before reaching the edge of the floor above. Drop of 8'4" (13×7.75") subtract floor structure (11-7/8" TJI plus 3/4" sub floor plus floor finish... 3/4 if wood = 13-3/8" gives you 7'2" clear. So works with a max steep stair, but you can see much deeper structure, beam at opening or less steep stair and you have a headache.
Thanks for these notes on stairs. On the to-do list was to post my understanding of calculating stair space needs - likely I am doing it the 'long' way. I'll digest your guidelines to see how far off track I am.
My Turn!
Hello! I have an Option B for you!
One thing that has bothered me right from the beginning about the overall layout for this house was that there was no “formal” entry. All traffic into the house (whether guests arriving for a dinner party or kids coming home from soccer practice) had to enter through the west door and once they were inside they were greeted by a long, narrow hallway which ran past the mudroom, kitchen and dining room until they finally got to the living room. This long, narrow hallway just didn’t feel “welcoming”, and the feeling of “tightness” was emphasized even more in the revised plan when the staircase was turned 90 degrees and the tall pantry wall was added.
Another thing that bothered me was the large open area on the north side of the living room. There’s really no way to put furniture there without it interfering with the circulation pathway to the east door so the whole area (roughly 18’ x 10’ or 180 sq’) winds up being empty space.
The last thing that bothered me was the location of the master bedroom. Being right next to the main door meant that it was nearest to the busiest and noisiest part of the house. Usually in a house design you move from the public spaces (foyer, living room) into the semi-public spaces (dining room, kitchen, hallways and mudroom) and then into the private areas (bedrooms and bathrooms) but with one main entry door that arrangement doesn’t really work here.
So since you want to keep the east/west orientation of the house as it is, with the mudroom and main entry on the west side of the house so it can be close to the future garage and driveway, I suddenly realized that the real issue with the overall layout are the locations of the two bedrooms so instead of flipping the entire house east to west I just flipped the northern half with the bedrooms and bathrooms.
Now when you come in the west door the guest room is in the northwest corner of the house (I take it the reason it’s called the guest bedroom is that it won’t be used all the time). The guest bathroom/ powder room has also moved further to the west so now it is more secluded and can’t be seen so easily from the living room or dining table.
The main hallway coming from the west entry door is wider, around 5’, and on the north wall there is a large broom closet behind the door, a closet for the guest room and then a large pantry. The staircase now starts down from the left and has a railing to make the kitchen and dining room feel even larger.
The master bedroom is now on the east side of the house. I created a small vestibule so that the door doesn’t open onto the living room and added a second closet between the master bathroom and the bedroom. The master bedroom itself is about 14” narrower and I’ve changed the master bathroom layout to give you a double vanity and a seating bench in the shower.
In the guest bathroom I turned the toilet 90 degrees and placed it under the window – any water and waste pipes should go through the floor system and the vent through an interior wall, not the exterior wall.
The last change I made was to widen the mudroom by 10”. As it was (with the width being 7’9”) by the time you subtract the width of the bench and cubbies (about 21”) and the depth of an average washing machine and dryer (about 28” - plus another 6” behind the washer for hooking up the water supply lines and the drain pipe so now you need about 34” of depth) there’s only 38” of open floor space left and I think that’s too tight. If possible, I would go to a 9’ wide mudroom rather than the 8’6” I’ve shown for even more room to move around and do laundry.
Of course, you will probably have to adjust window locations a bit (and you might consider adding small windows higher up on the walls behind the night stands in the bedrooms in order to get some early morning or late evening light) but that’s up to you.
Let me know what you think!
A plan B - certainly, I am not paying you enough! Thanks for your thoughts and efforts. Great stuff.
I wonder if the formal entry thing has faded . A few newer homes that I have been in recently do not have it. It could be that they happen to be smaller homes and face similar space issues that I see in the footprint that I have been trying to work in. In my reading as I prep for this construction, I read (early) about trying to keep things simple. Simple rectangle without bump outs, dormers, etc… While this is limiting, I like the ethos that is being presented.
Indeed, the large opening on the east wall by the living room is weird. I like your solution. I’ve resisted having the living room and main bedroom near each other. The main reason is that I will often stay up later than my wife and watch something on the screen. The separation would be nice. That being said, often I can throw in ear pods for the audio and not have the sound blasting. Secondly, and very similarly, I’ve wanted the basement bedroom on the east side. The main reason for this is that I play guitar and bass, and can keep that song out of my wife’s dreams (or nightmares :) ).
These changes are pretty nice. I will drop them into my floor plan maker and see how all the dimensions come out. That will help me wrap my mind around them further.
Many thanks!
Hello. I agree with you about most formal entries ( which hardly ever gets used) and the homeowners mainly use the garage entrance. That entrance is usually a dimly lit hallway or room that forces everyone to have to walk past stacks of shoes, hanging coats and all the stuff they put out for recycling. Not a very pleasant way to arrive home each day.
Now in your plan everyone will arrive at the house on the west side and therefore the entry hall has to be as open and welcoming as possible so widening it from 4' to 5' will make a big difference and help the entry "feel" more formal. The other important thing about a hallway entrance is to make it feel as short as possible, which is why I put a railing on the side of the staircase. Now the hallway entrance opens up on both sides as you walk towards the living room, rather than being blocked by a wall and only opening up towards the south.
As to the main bedroom and the living room being close to each other, the south bedroom closet will act as a sound barrier but if you want more sound deadening I would recommend making the wall between the main bedroom and living room 2x6 and filling it with Roxul Safe & Sound insulation. I saw a first hand demonstration of this product where they put a ghetto blaster at full volume in a cardboard box lined with Safe and Sound and as soon as they put the lid on you couldn't hear a thing.
As to the basement, don't compromise the main floor for the basement. Again, you can fill the floor system with Safe & Sound if you want to isolate a basement room from upstairs.
Thanks - I like the wider opening at that entry...I can envision hanging a couple pieces of art there on that wall or maybe even an old guitar. Something more fun than a stack a shoes :)
I recall seeing a build show video about that insulation (or at least something similar). That is a good idea. It may work well to have the master bdr on that end.
Hello. Here is a drawing that gives you dimensions for my suggested plan. All of the dimensions are measured to the framing layer (the edge of the studs) not to the surface of the sheathing or drywall. That's why a dimension between two interior walls might be 10' 1" (1/2" of drywall will be ducted from each opposing wall to give a final room dimension of 10'). For the exterior dimensions, they show distances from the outer edges of the building to the CENTERS of the interior walls. Finally, all interior walls are shown with 2x4 studs but some might have to be changed to 2x6 studs for plumbing.
One thing I'd like to discuss with you is the layout of the kitchen. I saw in another plan that you were considering an "L" shaped kitchen with an island. While I generally like this kind of kitchen layout I don't think it will really work with your home's design.
Since the length of wall for the fridge is only about 10' long you will have space for maybe a 24" base cabinet between the fridge and stove. Then you'll have a corner base cabinet (which due to its narrow door opening is probably one of the most difficult to use for practical storage and accessing items inside) and then turning the corner you have a sink cabinet and then another base cabinet. With this layout the stove and sink are too close together so there can only be one person working in this corner, either at the sink or at the stove.
The other issue is the island. As shown in that drawing, it is too small and too far away to be useful as a prep area. It's also too small for island seating and if you move it around or make it bigger it's just going to block traffic flow from the fridge to the sink and from the kitchen to the dining room.
I would suggest keeping the original kitchen design with the peninsula, but with one change - I would eliminate the peninsula seating and put either shallow depth glass front or open shelving display cases facing the dining room. The problem with island or peninsula seating (other than the fact that it is usually very uncomfortable) is that the height of the peninsula counter is 36" whereas the height of a dining table is 30". This means that you can't use a regular height dining chair at the counter so you typically have two choices - either you use a stool that is 6" taller than a regular dining chair (and your feet are now dangling off the floor) or you use a raised bar counter at a height of 42" and use high stools.
My suggestion is that you skip the counter stools and let everyone enjoy comfortable chairs at your dining table. You'll gain a lot of extra storage with the display cases facing the dining room and you'll have a 36-42" wide standard height peninsula counter to use as a serving buffet as well.
So, on the appliance wall of the kitchen you will have a 30" base cabinet, a 30" stove, a 30" base cabinet and a 30" fridge (you'll need a couple of extra inches of length on this wall for a fridge side panel and an air space on each side of the fridge). On the peninsula you'll have a 30" base cabinet, a 24" dishwasher, a 36" sink cabinet and a 30" base (I would try to keep all base cabinets as drawer units - except for the sink cabinet). On the dining room side of the peninsula there are four 30" shallow depth display cabinets - either all with glass doors or a couple can have open shelves.
Let me know if you have any questions!
PS. I just looked at the image of the dimensional drawing - you'll have to do a screen shot and blow it up to read them properly. If you still can't read them I'll do some enlargements of each room.
If I ever build a house , I’m coming to you guys for advice.
One modest suggestion. It might be the easy way out but I’d add two feet to the master/living room end. 1536 square feet is not excessive and these two spaces would breath easier with a click more space.
Agreed, the folks here are incredibly helpful. I’ve thought about adding a couple feet as well. But that started back when I had a 28x40’ and I kept adding to get it up to what it is now at 32 x 46’.
@malady
Which wall would you extend?
Would you change the 32’ depth to ‘34 or would you make the 48’ length to 48’.
I like these suggestions and your reasoning.
Yesterday, my wife and I were talking about how the raised island often promotes poor posture. She is a foot shorter than me, so finding the sweet spot between us is difficult.
Coincidentally, I jumped on to the thread just now to request the dimensions from you as my redraw was not arriving at a couple of the given dims in your previous plan. So you must have seen me coming!
Looking forward to digging into this over the weekend.
Rockies-2what software are you drawing in?
Any chance you could load it up with higher resolution, perhaps as a pdf?
I would bump up the ceiling height in the middle of the house, it will look and feel much larger. You can use raised heel scissor truss with a low slope ceiling so it can still take loose fill insulation in the attic.
Akos,
I'd be tempted to leave the ceiling flat, but include a light cannon with clerestory windows over the stair, to bring light into the center of the house, and add interest to both the interior and roof.
Something roughly like you see on the very top of this house:
A bit of light near the center would definately help, even a single skylight over the basement stair would help in getting some light down there.
8' ceiling is nice for building as I can reach it without any ladders but otherwise I've yet to find myself in a situation where the ceiling is too tall. A higher ceiling is a simple way to add a sense of space to a smaller footprint. Unless you get tall enough that trades need scaffolding, there isn't all at much extra cost of sloping the ceiling and brining up to say 10' in the center. At that height you would want 8' doors so that does add a bit of cost.
Akos,
I really like light from above, but to avoid the complications of skylights I usually try and bring it in with high windows. On my own house I expanded the chimney chase and added several windows. It transforms the upstairs hall, which would otherwise be a purely liminal space.
That is the plan. At 6’5”, I can really appreciate tall ceiling.
Perhaps a compromise on the peninsula seating: I've designed a few homes recently with seating for one or two people at a peninsula or island, sometimes including one on the narrow end, with the rest of the space used for storage.
The problem with the island is the location - it's too far away to really be useful for anything other than seating a couple of people. You also increase the tendency of people cutting through the "work zone" when someone is making dinner.
With the back wall/peninsula layout you get lots of prep area on either side of the peninsula's sink and you get 30" of prep area/landing area next to both the stove and fridge. Plus you get a smaller, very efficient work triangle with the sink right across from the stove and fridge.
Are you commenting on the photo I shared? If so, it works perfectly for the clients I designed it for, but it might not work for everyone. I find that many clients don't want a whole row of bar-type seating; they only want space for one or two stools.
The same concept could be used at the end of a peninsula, and I have done that as well, I just don't have any good photos that show it.
Here is an example of two stools on the end of a long island. You can't tell from the photo but just out of frame on the right, cabinets fill the space that could have been seating.
Hello. No, I was commenting on a previous plan shown in this thread where an "L" shaped kitchen layout with an island was shown. The island was just too small and too far away from everything to be useful. Increasing the size of the island or moving it closer would have made moving around the kitchen work zone worse.
A quick note: our design has a full, underground basement and a long straight and completely buried wall. The estimated soil pressure on this wall (9' concrete, about a 40' straight stretch) was sufficient that out structural engineer first designed it with a large external buttress to resist the soil pressure. I strongly objected because it would be a gigantic thermal bridge through the exterior insulation on the north wall, where soil will likely be totally frozen many feet for maybe 6 months/yr. It may be useful to consult a structural engineer. If you have a similar issue, a jog in the wall could provide a more room, and what may be required structural support. Our engineer came up with a clever (and I expect expensive) solution, but this issue was an unpleasant surprise that we probably could have designed around if we knew earlier. We completed our floor plan before doing the structural, so it was late in the game.
Thanks John - You point out something important. I did a 40' wall on our previous place (back in '05) and didn't have any extra structural support.
Today, I reached out to our concrete guy and he mentioned that anything over 40', and he likes to do a pilaster or increase the wall size to 10" thick. My reasoning for reaching out to him is that he is doing several foundations per week each season and likely would be called should any problems arise. He is a local guy that gets the lion's share of concrete jobs in a couple of towns in our part of the state for the past couple of decades - great reputation.
I think a pilaster could be the easier/cheaper solution.
Hello. I use Chief Architect. The drawings are huge on my screen but the display here makes a screen capture really small. Here are some close-ups.
Hopefully these will be easier to read than than the whole plan. Remember, exterior dimensions are from the edge of the building's framing layer to the CENTERS of the interior walls and interior dimensions are to the stud framing layer , not drywall to drywall surface.
Hello. Now don't hate me, but I've come up with an Option C.
I was looking at Option B again last night and the one thing I didn't like about the plan was that long blank wall on the north side of the living room. I wanted to put some storage there, or at least some bookcases, but the only way to do it was to make the master bedroom smaller north to south.
I also thought about your original desire to have the master bedroom in the northwest corner so in the end I flipped the bedrooms and bathrooms back to their original positions, then added in some 24" deep base cabinets with shelves over them along the north living room wall and changed the location of the main bedroom door and the pantry.
Basically the room sizes of the main bedroom, the bathrooms and the staircase remain the same, just flipped. The guest bedroom is a bit smaller (in order to make room for the cabinets in the living room), and the bed is now against the north wall, but the mudroom, kitchen, dining room and rest of the living room remain the same as in Option B.
Some close-ups.
Let me know if you have any questions!
Rockies63,
I like this one a lot. The one very minor thing I can't decide on is whether it might make sense to flip the closet and bathroom entry in the Main Bedroom, so you have easier access just inside the door?
Hi Malcolm, No, that wouldn't work because on the bathroom side of the rear closet wall the lower half of the wall is part of the walk-in shower and the upper half has the toilet backed up against it (near the stub wall).
Good point. It might make the bathroom feel much more private having the entry at the far wall anyway.
Kitchen - Malcolm Taylor made a good point about working out the kitchen before going too much further. I think this was pretty wise as this kitchen is likely on the smaller side of many new builds. Working with the Lowes Kitchen Designer, my wife and I mocked up a couple versions that we think would work.
A couple notes:
-The distance from the island to the wall is a bit over 5’ (through hallway). We had this amount of distance at our previous house, shown in the photo. It worked well.
-I changed from a U or Galley shape to the L plus Island. Originally, I was trying to avoid building a kitchen to similar to our previous house. I don’t know why as it worked well for us.
-Distances from the Island to the fridge and the Island to the counter/stove are about 40” per Michael M’s recommendation - Hopefully I understood the recommendation correctly. We are out of the US right now, and measurements in our casita are nothing to base much off of, as standards are not too well adhered to in MX in my experience.
-There are two designs. One layout has the fridge on the exterior wall, the other has the range on the exterior wall. We had the fridge on exterior wall version in our old home. We did a layout with the range on the exterior wall to remove the big appliance from the view to the dining and living room in this build.
-Putting the range on the exterior wall made me wonder about range exhaust in the home. This is something that I don’t know how to deal with in a Pretty Good House that is hoping to be well air-sealed. I don’t know that it matters, but we are planning on an electric range/oven. Any thoughts here would be appreciated.
-The design with the range on the exterior wall could not fit a dishwasher from the planning tool. This design utilizes an 18” dishwasher rather than the standard 24”. You can see my note for the 18" dishwasher location - I substituted an 18" cabinet.
-Rockies, I am redrawing your recent plan design using 12” walls. Should be complete in the next day. I had to steal a bit of space from the mudroom for the kitchen :(
I am curious about what we have wrong or right in this design.
I’ve included photos of the kitchen in the house we built a couple of decades ago.
Thanks for looking!
Beardoh,
We lived with an 18" dishwasher for more than a decade. The day I managed to rearrange our cabinets to include a 24" one brought about a huge welcome change. With the small one the damn thing was never off.
Malcolm,
No kidding? That is good feedback. I've actually never seen one like this till I jumped on the Home Depot site and saw they had quite a few options. We have had friends who have mentioned liking the half size drawer type.
Our needs are not big, just my wife and I. The only way our family will be growing will be when a parent needs to move in. We have been staying in MX a lot over the past 11 years and have really become accustomed to not having one - for both of us, it is a nice time to listen to an audiobook or podcast.
I included one as I think it would not be wise for resale to not include at least the 18"....
Ordinarily I would not block the view into the kitchen with a fridge at the end of the cabinet run but in this case the second image is the better layout (I would consider going with a cabinet depth fridge though). The stove should be on the interior wall but you should plan for a much better range hood design. Preferably, the range hood should be 6" wider than the stove and extend out from the wall 24" - and vent through the roof.
Open shelves next to a stove are an endless grease trap - not only does each shelf have to be "styled" for the sake of appearances every day but anything you want to use will typically need to be washed first to get rid of that thin film of grease - closed cabinets with glass doors would be a better choice.
I don't think 40" of clearance between the end of the island and the stove is enough, especially if someone is standing there or the oven door is open - I would aim for 48-54" (42-48" between fridge and island is OK). Make all base cabinets (except the sink cabinet) have drawers (even in the island) and have one base cabinet with an extra deep drawer for big pots. You'll probably have an extended corner cabinet (not an "L" corner cabinet) which will be accessed via a door on the stove wall side of the kitchen so hat means you'll also have a narrow bank of drawers right next to the stove. I would put garbage and recycling under the sink and the microwave on an open shelf in the island (DON'T USE AN OVER-THE-RANGE MICROWAVE !!!!! - they don't work). :)
I agree about the fridge location. I have designed similar kitchens many times. Here's the one I designed for the Fine Homebuilding 2016 ProHome and one featured in our book Pretty Good House.
Having designed dozens of small kitchens, I disagree that more than 40" of space between countertops is necessary. Nice to have, sure. Necessary in a small house, definitely not.
I have had open shelves flanking our stove for ten years, we cook 2-3 meals a day on the stove and have not found the stuff on the shelves to be grease traps. We do use our range hood and we use the stuff on the shelves often, which I'm sure helps. Our range hood is a microwave, though I never recommend it for safety reasons and it doesn't capture as well as a proper range hood.
Thanks Rockies63 and Michael Maines for your thoughts on the kitchen. I am left confused though.
Rockies63 - you recommended the 1st layout. The way the page loads for me, that image the one with the range on the exterior wall. You mentioned that the stove should be on the interior wall, which would be the 2nd image I loaded.
Michael - You agreed with Rockies63, but not sure which one you agree with. Your photos show both designs...which look great by the way, but leave me confused :)
I would not put the range on interior wall, the fridge makes more sense on interior, plumbing to fridge, exhaust for range. Also consider, making the fridge location slightly inset in wall so that counter depth planes out with cabinets better, one of my pet peeves in kitchens.
+1 on the fridge on the interior wall. It will make the space feel more open and simplifies range vent ducting.
No uppers looks good but comes at a big loss of storage. I've done it a couple of times for the looks but found the lack of storage frustrating. Make sure the base cabinets you have will hold what you need.
18" dishwashers is something you do when you must, I've used them in small apartments where space was very tight. My beef with them is they are more expensive than a 24" one and there is way less selection. They are also hold much less than one would assume from the 18" to 24" ratio.
Your kitchen layout also shows a fridge with a through the door ice maker. These are all prone to issues, unless you have an appliance repair pro in the family, I would avoid them.
@Akos - Agreed that there is a loss of storage. We keep things pretty minimal and had a few empty cabinets in the kitchen in the old house. I am planning to build the cabinets so we can give it a whirl with the shelves, and if it doesn't work well, add the uppers.
Thanks for the thoughts on the 18" dishwasher. Another vote against them.
The fridge in the layout really represents the fridge door style with a freezer on the bottom...but thanks for the tip on the door ice maker. Ours was problematic on occasion.
Freyr_design - Thanks for the idea about the inset wall. I'll compare that to the cost of a cabinet depth fridge.
Im sorry, I actually meant that in reference to a counter depth fridge with surround cabinets, as they still don't line with 24" cabinets. I didn't realize it was not going to have cabinets around it.
Sorry, corrected my reply. I meant the second image. With the stove on the exterior wall it is closer to the living space and fumes could carry into the room more. If indoor air quality is a concern I would consider an induction range top and using a range hood similar to the one in Michael's second image (comment #75).
The other thing is, with the stove on the exterior wall it is close to the dining table so any pots and pans left on it during a dinner party are really visible from the table. With the fridge on the exterior wall it blocks the view of the work zones a bit.
Another thing I don't like about the stove on the exterior wall is that you'd have the stove, dishwasher and sink all in a row on that wall and the spacing between the appliances and island is a bit too tight for more than one person to be working there. Also, It will be easier to put in upper cabinets around the range hood if the stove is on the interior wall, as well as between the high fridge cabinet and the window.
Thanks for the clarification. You make a lot of good points about positioning the stove. If the budget allows, the induction range will be our choice.
Beardoh, both of the kitchens I show have the sink and fridge on the same wall, with the stove on the adjacent wall, with an island facing the sink and stove. One is the reverse of your layout but the concept is the same.
With the addition of adding a "front door" that comes into the living space, have you considered adding some sort of "transition zone" outside like a simple porch?
Current plan is to have breezeway to a garage on the West (left) side, and on the right side, planning on a single pitch (shed) roof covering a patio and hot tub. Those are the two entrances to the house.
Just mocked up the latest version. One of the members here recommended adding a couple feet to give some breathing room. With some reflection, my wife and I quite agree. Added 4' to the length to bring the total up to 50'.
On the south side:
-3' added to living room (which is what really felt small in the plan)
-1' added to the kitchen, which will allow for a normal sized dishwasher
On the north side:
--2' added to the master bedroom
-1' added to the master bath
- 1' add to the guest bedroom (which allows for a reshuffle of the closet in bedroom)
I used a pocket door into the master bathroom...which will work fine for my wife and I.
The kitchen still has some decisions left to be made (fridge and stove location).
You should be able to design a very comfortable 2 bed 2 bath into a 1440 sf house, even with a 60sf stair
Hi Freyr_Design - How would you alter what I have?
I think your mud-room is too big, it could shrink by at least 1’, maybe two.
I think that built in shelf in the living room is unnecessary, if you want a built in bookshelf you only need 1’. And if you need storage you have an entire basement. You don’t need a broom closet and a mud room.
You can place your dishwasher in an island, just put a small sink in there as well.
Put your fridge not in the middle of your room on the exterior wall, it will make the whole house feel smaller and cluttered.
Make larger windows in living room if you are worried about it feeling small.
Think about ceiling height if you are worried about spaciousness.
Edit: also,
You don’t need a pantry, you could easily make that entire interior kitchen wall cabinets and fit as much storage as you are putting in that pantry, and it could look cool.
Thanks for all your thoughts above.
sorry last thing, I would do some sort of access to your basement from directly outside, especially if you are doing a workshop down there, a direct way to bring in wood. maybe you could use one of velux roof access windows or just traditional cellar style doors, some way of getting in there with large sheet goods, and long materials
Yeah...I think so. A couple of people have mentioned it in this thread, and I am persuaded. Just thinking more about taking sheetrock downstairs, and sheet goods for building the kitchen cabinets .. I've been convinced.
These somewhat hidden points of access (shown in the link) interest me quite a bit. Not for any clandestine reasons, but for integration into a patio that is covered. If I can have the bulkhead access be covered, that makes me happy.
https://www.shconstruction.com/builders-notebook/deck-over-basement-stairs/
Are you planning on an island for the kitchen? The best thing to do is to go down to Home Despot and have some 1x2 furring strips cut to 36" lengths and then screw them together to represent your kitchen cabinets. In your garage test out different kitchen layouts - where do you want the appliances, how wide an aisle you want, see whether you can get between the island and the fridge/stove when their appliance doors are open? Doing a mock-up now will save you tons of grief and money later.
Hi Rockies63 - That is not a bad idea. I think my wife lived in our previous house for over a year before ordering cabinets. Our goal for this summer is to get the place dried in, and then likely do some layout work for the kitchen before it's too cold...And I can make the plans for building the cabinets during the winter - from the warmth of MX, to be then executed the following summer.
Yep, planning for an island. I was so focused on the rooms that I didn't include the island.
Hmm. Personally, I don't think you need to add 4' to the length of the house. However, I do think adding 2 feet to the length and two feet to the width would be better. My reasoning is the vast distance between the end of the bed in the master bedroom and the closet wall and the very wide master bath - it's just too much empty space. Also, as it is now, your kitchen range wall, dining table location and living room furniture spacing still looks a bit cramped so I'll work on it tonight.
Stay tuned - we're getting close!
You may be right. I need to mock up a version like that. 48' x 34'
Brian,
Apologies if some of this is already resolved / repeat suggestions - I skimmed the thread but didn't do an in-depth read. A few things to think about, take or leave any of it:
- Mudroom: center up the entry door/opening in the mudroom space. Align the south wall window centerline with the mudroom entry centerline. Washer/Dryer on right as drawn, run a countertop over it for folding space, base cabinets below to the south of the washer dryer. Upper cabinets above. Could also fit a utility sink in that countertop if needed.
- Kitchen: Keep the basic layout, bump the fridge/freezer to the north wall of the L-shaped counter. That way it shares a wall already, not a huge deal if it's a full-size fridge and bumps into the aisle a bit. Looks like you've got room for 4' aisles and a substantial island, which could house the range with a hood above, and seating along the north edge of the island. Base cabinets below/to either side of the range. Sink on the south wall, window in front of the sink. Island-Range-Sink-Window all center on/align with each other. Dishwasher under cabinet to left/west of sink. South wall stays clear above the counter, maybe small shelves between windows, and upper cabinets along the west wall. West window is centered on the north-south aisle.
- Living Room: You may have already thought about the furniture layout there, but dropping some furniture in the drawing might be helpful. Seating around a coffee-table, or something more TV-centered? (looking at it, maybe there's a TV in the cabinetry along that north wall? Otherwise, not sure what's going on there - that aisle is a fair bit of space)
- Primary Bedroom/Bathroom: Maybe rework the bathroom & closets: Two closets, one each on the north and south side of the room. Center a door to the bathroom between them. WC< along the south wall with a pocket door, walk-in shower to east. You should have room for ±5'-6" WC + 3'-6" shower. Could drop that WC to 5' if you really wanted to prioritize the shower. Vanity along the north wall, window centered on the vanity / centered in the bathroom, sinks to either side of vanity, mirrors above sinks.
Again, apologies if some of this is already figured out or planned for; I mostly just went off what I could see in the latest drawing.
Cheers,
Paul
Thanks for your thoughts Paul. Good stuff to think through.
Hello. Here’s Option D.
I suspect that the reason you felt you needed to lengthen the house by 4’ was because of the long length of the sink and fridge wall in the kitchen (12’10”). Such a long run of cabinets and the fridge meant that the space left for the dining room and living room was getting pretty tight (and it was). While lengthening the house by 4’ did improve things I felt that there was still a problem with the width of the main rooms. So instead of lengthening the house by 4’ I lengthened it by 2’ and widened it by 2’.
Lengthening the house by 4’ also caused problems in other areas of the house. With the main bedroom now 14’9” wide (and a bed plus headboard usually being 7’ long) you had a distance of 7’9” between the end of the bed and the east closet doors. That’s a lot of empty space.
As for the master bathroom, your dimension is 9’6” in width whereas in my plan it’s 8’8” (you’ll never notice 10”). Also, I don’t think you’ll be able to put a pocket door where it is shown on your plan because there will probably be plumbing or vent pipes in the wall right behind the toilet. I also put the stub wall back in next to the toilet – a toilet should have more privacy from the entrance and the window (which is actually more of a psychological “feeling” than anything “visual”).
For your guest room you show a width of 10’8” and in my plan it’s 11’2”. I did jog the wall with the guest room door in it 1’ to the east just to create a more generous hallway and access to the stairs. I also suggest that you use the space on the south side of the guest room for a home office/computer area (you can fit in a 2’ deep desk and upper shelving into that space easily). Even if the room gets used frequently it’s nice to have a place to sit and do some work or surf the internet.
In the hall by the front door I put the broom closet back in. My reasoning for this is that the space behind the front door is “dead space” so having a cabinet door there is more interesting than a long stretch of drywall, it’s easier to get out a broom from this location than having to go into the mudroom and by having a wall behind the broom closet there is now a short length of wall in the main bedroom to set a night stand against (it’s a pet peeve of mine to have a closet door extend past the front edge of a night stand). Now, if you are determined to have the broom closet in the mudroom, I would suggest putting a display niche in that spot in the hall – a counter height base cabinet with an open area above for a sculpture or piece of artwork. It would be a nice surprise for guests arriving.
Now the north/south widths of the bedrooms, bathrooms and staircase remain the same – the extra 2’ of house width went into the mudroom, kitchen, dining room and living room (but the biggest change is to the kitchen). When the kitchen layout changed from having the stove and fridge on the interior wall and the sink in a peninsula to an “L” shaped kitchen there was a lot of talk about whether it was better to have the stove or the fridge on the exterior wall. Now you show the fridge being on the exterior wall at the end of a run of base cabinets but I think at 12’10” in length the kitchen is getting a bit too spread out. However, now that there’s an extra 2’ of length on the interior wall there’s room for the fridge and stove on that wall, a shorter run of cabinets on the exterior wall (11’ – with a 24” dishwasher), and lots of space for a generous island.
The dining room remains about the same width as before but you do get a more generous living room (2’ of extra length from shortening the kitchen from 12’10” to 11’ plus another 2’ from lengthening the house so 4’ longer in total) with space for a media console, TV, large sectional and a couple of occasional chairs.
As always, these are just my suggestions, and feel free to ask me any questions!
We'll get this thread up to 100 comments yet!
Option D Dimensions
Thanks for those Rockies63 - One difference that I have been needing to overcome when playing with your drawings and dimensions is the exterior wall thickness. Michael Maine's recommendation of a 12" double stud wall is something that I had been pondering and am inclined enough to do, so I have included it in these drawings.
Are you using a 6" exterior wall? That is what I am guessing, based on the foot that I loose in both dimensions when I try to redraw yours in my software.
Hello, yes, I am using 6" exterior walls, but I was also expecting that there would be continuous exterior insulation. Your area is climate zone 5A or 5B (or maybe bordering on zone 6. According to the 2019 New Hampshire Energy Code you would need wall insulation of either R20 or R13 + R10.
https://insulationinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/NH_Code-FINAL.pdf
I'm sure you'd like to build better than that, but does that mean a double stud wall? Are you trying to get the house to Passive levels or to a Pretty Good House level? I'm sure this question will cause a debate all by itself but 12" of insulation seems a bit of overkill. From what I've read over the last few years, as long as you do a diligent job of air-sealing and using an appropriate thickness of exterior insulation, a standard 2x6 wall is more than sufficient to have a warm, safe and sturdy home in climate zone 5 or 6.
A 2x6 wall won't meet code-minimum standards (aka the worst house you can legally build) in climate zone 6 unless you use spray foam, which comes with a bunch of its own problems. Same for climate zone 5 in the 2021 IRC.
I had mentioned previously that I always start out with thick walls so I don't have to try to make them thicker later. Often I do end up making them thinner, which is usually easier thank making them thicker.
The Pretty Good House approach is to make improvements until they stop making financial sense. I always find that on new construction for a house you plan to stay in for at least a few years that it makes financial sense to go above code minimum.
Michael, if the New Hampshire Energy code requires R20 cavity insulation (or an R13 cavity insulation plus an R-10 continuous exterior insulation) then why wouldn't a 2x6 wall work? According to the Roxul website, their 5.5" thick Comfortbatt insulation has an R value between 21-23 and you could still add a couple of layers of their exterior Comfortboard to the outside sheathing to improve insulation values. (2 layers of 1.5" Comfortboard would add about R10 - R12) . Are you referring to the overall wall R value or the stud bay R value?
I don't see why going to a 12" thick wall is necessary - detailing all the window and door penetrations gets tricky and I also think of those "laws of diminishing returns" studies I've seen where they compare how much extra performance you get from adding in more and more insulation.
https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-diminishing-returns-of-adding-more-insulation/
I don't know the New Hampshire code. I'm talking about the IRC. Going back as far as 2015 in CZ 6 they require R-20 cavity plus R-5 continuous (https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2015/chapter-11-re-energy-efficiency#IRC2015_Pt04_Ch11_SecN1102). In the 2021 IRC they require the same for CZ5. https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2021P1/chapter-11-re-energy-efficiency#IRC2021P1_Pt04_Ch11_SecN1102
If you've been on GBA as long as you have and you don't understand why using more insulation in your walls is usually a good thing, or how to install windows in a thick wall, nothing I say here is going to change the situation.
I do my own energy models and calculate my own paybacks. I figure a 5-10% ROI using simple, not compounded returns, and assuming energy costs will remain static, is safer than putting the same money into the stock market for comparable returns.
Oh, I do understand that using more insulation in the walls is a good thing, it's just that now there are people such as Allison Bailes saying that once you reach a certain point there is less and less benefit to adding more and more insulation. There are also issues with getting the correct balance between the amount of continuous exterior insulation compared to the interior cavity insulation.
Then there are people who argue about the best way to build a double stud wall - how does the climate zone, humidity levels, insulation type affect your choice of air/water/vapor barriers (and where they go).
Then the window people - where in the thick wall to place the unit - innie, outtie or in-between and how to flash/seal the exterior and interior trim to the window units. There's a lot of extra decisions to make with a double wall system and I don't know if someone who is building the house himself with help from a friend will want to work out all those details.
Hello. I tried out the main bathroom layout suggested by Paul in comment #91. I wasn't thrilled with it. Putting the vanities on the exterior wall creates a really awkward placement for the window between the mirrors, you lose about 18sq' of floor space (a 3' x 6' room) just to enclose the toilet and you get a little shower. Plus on the bedroom side, with the two separated small closets you are now looking at three doors opposite the bed.
I know it's hard to visualize all these suggestions, so I did a couple of pictures of my suggestions for the main bathroom to show you what I was thinking. The double vanity has a 1.5" wide vertical piece of material (the same as the countertop) as a waterfall edge to frame the cabinets, a 30" vanity, an 18" bank of drawers, a 30" vanity and another 1.5" wide waterfall edge (the waterfall edges also keep the vanities away from the side walls so you can open the doors without the handles hitting the walls).
I like this Rockies63. The main reason I put in that pocket door going into the master bath was that I was short on space for door returns. I have been trying to keep the wall span at the door to be 10" or more. This allows for 4" trim on both sides and 1" of sheetrock before the corner wall. A pet peeve of mine is trim pieces butted up against a corner. A preference of mine is for larger trim.
Also, I didn't think I wanted to steal any more wall space from the toilet. I dislike cramped toilets. I am 6'5" and the world is already too d*mn small...so in the places of the world where I can control (or attempt to), I try to make space.
Your points make sense about the possible venting of the toilet on that wall. I am currently playing around with dimensions to sew this up.
Hello, here are a few pictures of the kitchen, just to give you a general idea of how it might look.
Nice, thanks! Looks like a dishwasher would fit in to the left of the sink
@ Michael Maines and Rockies63:
Indeed, I was aiming for a double stud wall that is 12" that I would pull back from slightly if desired. The house is in the White Mtns in NH. We are solidly in Zone 6.
I am inclined to follow the Building Science Corps 10-20-40-60 model. Putting 40 into the walls. So a 12" wall would give me R 45.6 if I use blown cellulose at 3.8R/inch. Backing off to ten inches would be something I'd consider.
The wall assembly that I have been drawn to would be:
Siding/Rain Screen/WRB Sheating/Insulation/Smart Vapor Retarder
Siding: Fiber Cement or Metal
WRB: Zip or Plywood (with a house wrap)
Insulation: Blown Cellulose
Smart Vapor Retarder: Majrex, Intello or Membrain
Dealing with the windows. I haven't let this be too much of a hang up. People have been doing both double stud as exterior insulation for quite a while. Friends in the trades that I know, have recommended not go the exterior insulation route mentioning the time involved. That still really isn't a huge deterrent as the time is mine/my wife's. But tell that to me in late October when we are installing windows :)
@ Michael - Reading through the PGH book, there is photo that I wanted to ask you about. I took a screen shot and loaded it here. If that is not OK, please tell me and I will pull the attachment.
Do you know the dimensions of the living room in this?
The layout of Kit, Din, Liv is really similar to what I am aiming for, as is the probable use of a scissor truss for the roof (that is a guess on my part) for the sloped ceiling.
Beardoh, sorry, that's Chris Briley's partner's design and I don't have drawings for it. Here are more photos though: https://briburn.com/project/crescent-lake-house/. I would estimate the entire room is about 24' x 32' and the living room portion is about 12' x 24' , with the seating area being about 12' x 16'. But that's just an estimate.
Thanks Michael - Cool stuff over on the Briburn website.
I just wanted to drop a final word of thanks to all the folks who have given their thoughts, critiques, and suggestions as I worked through this floor plan. Attached is my latest version and what I intend to submit to the town with the building permit application.
No doubt, there could be some changes once we are framing. This is fine and somewhat expected as I will be framing with my wife and a friend who is an experienced framer.
I think this was a great exercise for my wife and I, as we tried to dial in what we ultimately wanted.
We have lived in a variety of homes of the years in the US, too many homes in Mexico, East Africa (Peace Corps) and Eastern Europe (Peace Corps, again). We also have backpacked multiple years worth of our adult life. I mention these things mostly to say that we have been pretty darn happy living in hammocks for 5+ months straight or in conditions that are often below North American standards. Finding a compromise between 'what do we need' and 'what is worthwhile, if we are going to build this damn thing anyways' is not easy.
This was great intro to the people here on GBA!