European windows that open outwards?
braun247
| Posted in General Questions on
I like the look and style of European windows in general, but all of the ones I have seen open inwards. I don’t want to comment to having the areas around windows free to open, it takes too much room.
Thanks
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Klearwall (made by Munster Joinery in Ireland) have casement window options. We got them, and regret it. There's no integrated bug screen, so you have to add something like Mirage screens. This is not only a very pricey addition, but having the screen on the inside has the added drawback that you can end up with bugs trapped between the window and the screen. This happens most egregiously when it's dark outside and you have a light on inside near the window. Then you can't even close the window without letting all those bugs in the house until the next morning. I would trade the casements we got for tilt and turns in a second, even with the downside of the in-swing. I think most of the time we would probably use the tilt instead of the turn anyway.
Initially we really wanted casement window because that's what we're use to and we wanted the option to put things on the interior sill. After thinking about it for months we came to the same conclusion as Trevor and also looked around our house and realized that all of our window sill have nothing one them because we like to clear look but if we wanted to put something on there, we could simply use the tilt option.
Arnold
Also remember that the turn function does not work as a traditional casement window does. It can't be cranked to a specific position and stay there. You can unlock it and open it to the desired position, but there is nothing that will keep it there. It will swing freely if affected by a breeze from another open window, for example. I don't believe the turn function is really considered practical for anything other than washing the window exterior.
Most people I know rarely open their windows because they simply rely on the heating / AC system to control the interior temperature. I often open my windows because I do not have AC but I do not want to leave them open at night which is where the tilt option would be nice to have.
I honestly think to main issue with tilt & turn in North America is because we are, myself included not use to that system. Humans are slow to change.
Arnold
I don't like inswing because they take up interior space. They don't work well in hallways and make furniture placement difficult in other rooms.
You can probably find the style and function you want in a US or canadian casement window for less money. Comfortline Fiberframe is one to look at, for example.
Most North American windows won't come close to the performance of European windows. The Comfortline you mentioned has almost double the u-value and half the SHGC of a good European window.
Have you looked at Loewen? Not European per se -- Canadian -- but outswing.
Zola has outswing casement windows. We were initially planning to get these, but switched to tilt and turn instead.
European windows, when employing an actual apples to apples comparison to comparable North American windows, are not the technological wonders that the hype makes them appear.
Not saying that there aren't some really nice European windows available, but the apparent performance advantages of European windows are primarily due to inappropriately (and not always unintentionally) comparing the results of different measurement systems and criteria that make the European windows appear to be significantly better than their North American counterparts.
When performance is measured using the same measurement criteria, Euro windows performance values tend to fall right in line with comparable North American products.
Greg,
That is simply NOT true. For example, Alpen sells a European version window that is NFRC rated. That means the window is tested and certified with the USA National Fenestration Rating Council. The Alpen (Tyrol) window gets a NFRC Certified rating of U-Value 0.11 which is a FULL FRAME rating. Center of Glass (CoG) is a U-Value of 0.07 or R-14. The windows have a 1 3/8" wide IGU
US Windows tend to fall around a NFRC U-Value of 0.30 for 95% of new homes. Some see U-Values in the 0.25 range but most are >0.25 range.
I haven't kept up with product offerings of late, but when I was shopping windows one of the big differences is that Euro triple glazed windows were in frames designed for three panes of glass, whereas North American triple glazed windows were squeezed into the same size frames they used for double panes, making the gap between panes very thin.
It should be possible to test this claim, since some companies publish both European ratings and NFRC ratings.
Zola, for example, gives a European U-factor of 0.14 for its Thermo Clad tilt-turn window, versus a NFRC U-factor of 0.17. I just looked up Marvin's performance data for their Ultimate aluminum-clad tilt-turn triple-pane window with two low-E surfaces and argon filler, and it lists a NFRC U-factor of 0.27.
That's just one bit of evidence, but it doesn't support that idea that the difference in reported performance is "primarily" due to using different measurement systems.
Kevin,
From my understanding, the Europeans split the IGU rating and the frame rating, as 2 distinct numbers. So the glass has it's own rating and then the frame has it's own rating. The argument in favor of this method is that in large expansive windows, the ratio of IGU vs frame is higher for the IGU. So on a 30 sqft window, there is a lot of glass and only a little frame area. Plus one can insulate the frame area by using rigid foam to cover the frame areas and recessing the window as an "innie" window to help with the efficiency.
The U.S. NFRC method tests & takes a standard 2'0 x 2'0 window and gives it a total U-Value value based on the frame and IGU, combined. The argument against this is that you are testing and certifying it based on a 4 sqft window and most people don't get such small windows. Window frames are always the most inefficient part of a window assembly so the window is "penalized" as the IGU vs frame ratio is skewed on the US testing method.
The Marvin window you mentioned gets a poor U-Value, even in triple pane, as they are just squeezing 3 panes into a 2 pane frame design. Alpen and other true triple pane Euro design manufacturers use a 1 3/8"+ IGU.
The Alpen (Tyrol) window gets a NFRC Certified rating of U-Value 0.11 which is a FULL FRAME & IGU rating, combined. Center of Glass (CoG) is a U-Value of 0.07 or R-14. The windows have a 1 3/8" wide IGU. So apples to apples, compared to a Marvin triple pane, the Alpen is way more efficient, based on the NFRC ratings of both windows.
Peter, I wonder if you misread my comment? I was responding to Greg, not you. You and I seem to be saying the same thing, that the NFRC ratings of European-style windows imply that the performance differences are real, not simply artifacts of different measurement standards.
Hi, I'm just an amateur here but I'm wondering if you and the other user JackofAllTrades777 can read Oberon's most recent comment (below) and share if you agree or not. We're trying to decide between Euro vs American windows and it would help greatly.
Hi, I'm just an amateur here but I'm wondering if you and the other user kevinhenry can read Oberon's most recent comment (below) and share if you agree or not. We're trying to decide between Euro vs American windows and it would help greatly.
Everyone in this thread should read this research report from 2013. It answers everything on the differences between the two test standards. One of the biggest difference is in the method of center of glass testing and the optimal air space. With NFRC testing a 13 mm space is optimal and European testing an 18 mm space is optimal. One other significant difference is the testing sizes. European standards test a larger size which increases the ratio of glass to frame which increases the efficiency of most windows because the ratio of IG spacer to center of glass is lower, with the IG spacer being the most conductive part of the overall window assembly.
The report also shows how North American windows perform when tested via the European method. Physics in Europe and North America are the same. Argon gas has the same density in Europe as it does in North America. Fiberglass, wood and vinyl have the same thermal conductivity in Europe as they do in North America. 3mm plate glass in Europe is the same 3mm thickness as it is in North America. etc......
https://www.slideshare.net/RDHBuildings/window-standards-compared-nfrc-iso-and-passive-house-ratings
Per my original comment: European windows, when employing an actual apples to apples comparison to comparable North American windows, are not the technological wonders that the hype makes them appear.
European window performance testing measures center-of-glass, edge-of-glass, sash, and frame as four separate data points. NFRC measures center-of-glass, edge-of-glass, sash, and sash/frame combined as three separate data points, Edge-of-glass is the outer 2.5" of the IGU. Anything within that edge area is considered CoG.
NFRC uses zero F as the cold end baseline while Euro uses 20°F as the cold end baseline. The warmer baseline in Europe inherently favors wider airspaces in performance calculations primarily due to convection current considerations.
There is a very simple formula for converting Euro data into NFRC, unfortunately results obtained using the very simple formula are invalid because the two methods are not directly comparable. And while using the formula does not give an accurate result it's still very commonly used (again advertently or inadvertently) often by people representing the inherent superiority of European windows to compare Euro values to NFRC values. Just as using CoG to advertise window system performance is not meaningful no matter who is doing it, European or North American.
In order to do an actual apples to apples, the windows have to be tested using one or the other measuring system, they cannot be compared by mathematically converting from one to the other. As mentioned earlier, the Euro measurement criteria tends to favor wider airspace while NFRC tends to favor slightly narrower spaces, but this doesn’t mean that you can drop a third lite between two other lites in a 7/8" dual IG and automatically expect to get great triple pane numbers, it's more of a generalization as part of an overall system.
Also please note that I specifically said "European windows", not "European-style" windows. My contention is that there is no inherent automatic advantage to using imported European windows vs COMPARABLE North American windows. When I say North American or NFRC I am absolutely including "European-style" windows built in North America using North American glass packages and potentially a mixture of North American and/or European sash/frame/ hardware in the construction of the North American windows as comparables.
For example Peter, you compared the Alpen Tyrol to Marvin narrow triple and that is far from an apples to apples comparison - they just aren't intended for the same application (other than being a window) or same customer base. And keeping in mind that the Alpen is a "European style" window, it's still manufactured in Colorado, not a European import.
Trevor, you noted that "...one of the big differences is that Euro triple glazed windows were in frames designed for three panes of glass, whereas North American triple glazed windows were squeezed into the same size frames they used for double panes...", and while this certainly does exist, there are also many North American manufacturers (and many of those do build and advertise "European style") who build triples in wider configurations as well. And the narrow triples can get very good performance value numbers if they use krypton rather than argon in the narrow configuration...but that is an expensive option.
If you look at the NFRC site for Zola (who I personally think makes a great window), their dual pane IG units have U factors in .27 range which is pretty much standard for even lower grade vinyl windows made in North America.
My own windows are "Euro-style" tilt-turns made by Innotech in Vancouver BC. They were built using Kommerling vinyl extrusions and German tilt-turn hardware, but with a Cardinal triple pane glass package using 4mm /14mm airspace / 3mm / 14mm airspace / 4mm with Cardinal LoE coatings and Cardinal's stainless steel XL spacer system. My fixed windows are U.16, operators U.17, with air infiltration .003cfm, and DP 100 (I have the original paperwork). These windows are 15 years old and perform like new, but the performance values are a hair better than what's currently listed on the Innotech website (I don't know why), but the performance values on the website are still comparable to Zola (for example) where NFRC U.17 is the standard for their triple pane products.
The unfortunate truth is that there is very little demand for super high performance windows In USA. There are exceptions of course but this doesn’t mean that American window companies can’t manufacture widows to the highest performance standards in Europe, they can and do IF they have incentive to do so. But as long as people brag about what a great price they got at Window World…that's what they are competing with.
There is a reason why the best performing windows in North American are commonly, but not exclusively, manufactured in Canada. Given the incentive to do so companies like Marvin. Kolbe, Andersen and others could match anything coming out of Europe, but that’s not what the general public is asking for.
Understood that the European window technology is not vastly superior, just slightly. BUT, no name brand American manufacturer currently offers a product comparable to what is run of the mill in Europe. That’s the issue.
To my knowledge there’s only one passive house rated wood window built in North America. There are dozens built in Europe.
H Window Company makes a fantastic window doing exactly what you asked in your initial question.
There is a small window company in the middle of Montana, called Chinook. They make double hung and single hung windows with U factors as low as .16 - for a double hung.
Plygem, frankly not a company that I would generally associate with high quality, makes casements with U factor of .14.
Cascadia in western Canada makes a fiberglass tilt-turn window with R factor of .13, while not far away, Innotech manufactures vinyl tilt turns (using German lineals and hardware) also with U factors as low as .13.
There are many more window companies in North America that match these performance values, most of them being regional or local companies.
Any idea how many European window companies make a hurricane impact window? I I ask because there are literally hundreds of companies in North America who make these windows, but off the top of my head I can't think of any European window companies that offer this product, although I suspect there may be a few.
Is the reason that European window companies don't build hurricane impact windows due to a lack of expertise or technology to successfully design and build impact windows? Or could it be because of some other reason such as no real monetary incentive to fill a niche in what is essentially a niche product? Even more so when you are already in that position as an import.
North America is a big place with a wide variety of climate conditions. One could argue that the basic PassiveHaus model might be inappropriate for large chunks of North America a discussion that has been on going for a long time with the. point being that does it make sense to drop a wide triple with high solar heat gain coating and a U.14 in the middle of Arizona, or South Florida? Would it makes sense along the California coast or in Houston? Or would it be better to minimize the requirement for very low U factor that comes from a Passivhaus rated unit while adding emphasis to minimizing solar heat gains in these locations? Locations that all do have huge ongoing construction requiring lots of windows.
Big American window companies manufacture products that could end up going anywhere between Maine to San Diego or Minnesota to Miami with the primary regard to regional differences by offering different glass pack options. This is reality and how their business model works, good or bad.
Could companies like Marvin and Kolbe build windows that matched the best Europe produces? Absolutely they could, IF they had an incentive to do so beyond saying that it's good for the planet (which it certainly is), but ultimately it's hard to justify (good or bad) spending 10% of your resources for 1% return, so leaving that niche market to the regional and local guys, or else European imports. I would ask what technology European window companies have that exceeds North American technology? I am saying the differences are a matter of application and not technology.
And no doubt that European companies make some great windows, but also that IF the only criteria is energy performance, then do an apples to apples comparison between what's available locally versus what's coming in. I am not knocking European imports, but I am knocking the mindset that claims that the imports are automatically superior across the board because...well, because they are.
Oberon,
Beyond performance, cost was a factor for me. I went with European aluminum triple pane T&T. Quotes I received for comparable American made windows were substantially higher and beyond my budget.
Interestingly enough, I saw that Jeld Wen now sells European T&T windows. I received a quote and it was 75% higher... and come to find out, the new Jeld Wen line are made in Poland.
Thanks,
Mike
If you can get Euro windows for less than comparable North American, then why wouldn't you? As long as you are comfortable with the purchase then go for it. Pricing is a comparable as well, and if the North American manufacturers price themselves out of this market then they may need to relook at their business strategy in this area if they want to remain competitive.
Jeld Wen claims to be the largest window/door company in the world. With over 4 1/2 billion in sales worldwide that may be true, but I suspect few people in the US think of Jeld Wen as an international company, if they think of them at all.
From what I have heard and read, only about about 1/4 to a 1/3 of their sales are in North America, they actually sell more through their international business, and I find it somewhat surprising that they haven't been offering Euro windows all along since they apparently have that option
I was hesitant at first, but became comfortable enough to purchase. Interesting about Jeld Wen. I did not know that they were international. Actually, I misstated - the Jeld Wen quote for their "european windows" was actually 125% higher. Their quote was 75% higher for their USA "Siteline", which was double pane with a U-factor of .3. Though, this was from just one dealer.
Honestly I am not a fan of Jeld Wen at any level and I wouldn't use Jeld Wen if offered.. Just my two cents.
Has anyone used SHUCO aluminum T&T's? They have a factory here in CT for their aluminum windows but for the life of me I can't find pricing anywhere.
nynick,
I haven't but I received quotes for Shuco from https://eas-usa.com/
Thanks, but I'm not ready for a quote yet. Even so, I've had no luck getting ANY IDEA of Shuco pricing for anything.
On the original question of windows that open outward vs inward - I was recently in Germany visiting family and we spent some time in Holland. One of my family members pointed out that the Dutch commonly have windows that open out, where in Germany they open to the inside. Now other than being an interesting tidbit of information... it doesn't give much to go on. This is an old thread and I guess the original poster bought his windows by now. Maybe a future reader could see what types of brands are commonly sold in Holland, and if any of them have import connections to the US?