European Window Samples
Hello all, we’ve been looking at importing windows from Europe. On the fence between a few brands. I found one supplier allows you to order corner samples and color charts. The color options for the corner samples are limited. If you live near some of the big importers, you can see these in person of course. The two I have here are Salamander Blueevolution82 and the Aluplast Energeto Neo, both nearly identical with a U-value of up to around 0.13. I ordered them from Debesto. The cost is a bit high to ship to the US. Around $200 all in and you’ll have a couple samples. Figured I’d pass my findings to you fellow energy nerds. I’m not trying to start a debate of European vs American brands, there are quality options in both places.
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I don't understand why one would import windows from Europe when they sell European style windows here in the USA. Alpen in Colorado manufactures the Tyrol Series which are triple pane European style Tilt & Turn windows using European hardware, Rehau frame profiles, but the windows are made in the USA.
The lead times for European windows are long, the shipping costs are high, then if a window arrives broken/damaged, how long do you have to wait for another shipping container to ship for a replacement window?
I bought Alpen Tyrols recently. Very happy with the quality.
Price. And shipping cost is hardly different. I'm in the Midwest. Quote from Alpen was over double.
Agreed, makes little sense, to each their own
Tim_O,
So leaving aside questions about whether it makes sense to import or not, what is your takeaway from the samples you received?
It was nice to see the corners up close and the colors. And get a perspective on the frame width relative to the glass. We had some 24x24 windows spec'd in the garage, which would leave a very small amount of glass. My preference is to the Salamander windows, but both are good.
It might also be useful to make a little mockup with these so that I have a plan together when the windows themselves show up, since they do have a bit of lead time.
I can see having the corner and color samples being useful for people who may be ordering from no where near am importer or someone like yourself who may want to show clients physical options for a design.
Tim_O,
It is nice to see the profiles. I had a bit of a shock on one project where the divider between the fixed pane above and the operable awning portion below was a good 3" wide. It really impeded the view.
It would be interesting if window suppliers started providing a CAD package for the windows what you could easily plug into your house model. Maybe more work than it's worth though!
I love those corner or edge samples. There's something deeply satisfying about being able to explore them (and I have).
That being said, I think there is an odd fascination with these products that doesn't make rational sense in most locations in the US.
- There is no free lunch; these windows are expensive.
- Shipping greatly compounds the expense.
- The payback period in most locales often doesn't make sense even when money is free, and certainly doesn't make sense in a relatively high interest rate environment.
- There are domestic alternatives.
- Windows that tilt or turn in complicate blinds and shades.
What are you comparing them against? I find European PVC windows to be pretty affordable compared to moderately high-end North American windows, high-performance or otherwise.
I should have been more specific. The ones I spent the most time looking at were wood interior, compared against Andersen A-series which is one of their more expensive products.
PVC windows from Logic were way more reasonably priced and seemed like a nice product, but not what I was looking for at the time.
European wood/clad windows can be expensive for sure. Logic makes high-quality, Euro-style windows in Pennsylvania. The European PVC windows I have used all have realistic wood-look interiors as an option, but they aren't real wood.
I looked at European windows in a fair bit of detail. The ones from Greece and Turkey can be quite competitive, ones from Germany, less so. I saw ones from Greece using ETEM profiles installed at a house. They were quite well made. Even though they crate them well, I still think there is a reasonable risk of schedule delay should damage or loss occur during transport. If you order them really early to be sure to have them, there are cashflow and storage issues to deal with.
Europe also calculates U factor with a smaller temperature differential so its not a direct comparison to north American U factors.
In the end I purchased a Belguim profile from Reynaers that was cut and assembled locally with local glass. Seemed like a good all around solution. There are Shuco manufacturers that do the same thing, but I found them more costly for the same thing.
Is this an aluminum window? I haven't heard of that before.
There was a recent article on the Ufactor difference. If I remember right, Europe uses 0 Celsius and US uses 0 F. 0F is only a few select cold nights for us. 32F is the norm in winter.
Tim,
Yes they were aluminum. In the end, I only bought a large lift and slide (11ft tall) in the Master Patio line. We chose a more traditional/transitional house design and the asymmetric frame sizes of operating and fixed panes along with outside screens was an appearance issue for my wife and designer. Interference with shades and blinds when open was also an issue. Went with fiberglass casement windows instead. Was not worth the fight with the two most influential women in the design of the house.
After I ordered the windows, I found the ETEM ones. They have a premium version that uses a slim profile for the tilt and turn so both fixed and operating sashes look the same. They can also be ordered with built in retractable screens, solving appearance issues. The cost of the premium version was about on par with Reynaers. They would have been a serious contender.
I only mention the U factor because the European test method will yield a lower number for the same glass and it will look like it performs better, but they are the same.
I get that! I was mainly looking for uPVC due to budget, but good to know there are more suppliers out there.
The Salamander windows are actually NFRC rated.
I put fiberglass tilt and turn windows in my basement. They are much better for venting and egress than sliders and seal better. Mine were from Inline. Very reasonable cost compared to the uPVC import ones I looked from Neufenster and Gaulhofer. Not sure you can get Inline, but the product and pricing are reasonable. After sales service is questionable at best though. What you save in cost, is supposed to make up any service aggravations, I suppose.
A few months ago, priced out an Alpen Tyrol Tilt & Turn triple pane window about 40" x 40" with black frames (U-Value of 0.15) and it came out to around $1k.
In places like Germany, you can't even buy sliding windows for new homes as they don't pass code for air tightness. Which makes sense as any horizontal sliding or vertical sliding (aka - single/double hung) window cannot provide good air sealing because of the design flaw inherent in the window itself. That's why a casement or tilt & turn window is so much more air tight as the windows close with multiple gaskets and multiple closing pins.
I never understood someone building an energy efficient house and then they install double pane single hung and sliding windows, which leak a ton of air. At least do casements if you don't want triple pane European tilt & turns. Air leaks account for about 30% of a homes energy loss.
You can't buy sliding windows in Germany as single or double hung windows simply never existed in Germany .. this is the case for most of Europe except for the UK and Ireland where hung windows originated from ...
I've had projects with double-hung windows test as tightly as 0.14 ACH50, so I think the airtightness concerns with sliding windows are somewhat overblown. They will likely get leakier over time, and window quality and installation details make a big difference, but sliding windows (double-hung, in my case) are not necessarily as bad as the Passive House crowd makes them out to be.
Wow, that's impressive without any windows. I think a project like that would be deserving of an article here. If high performance double hungs were commonplace, I wonder how many people would opt for them?
They were just Marvin Integrity, now called Elevate. The builder taped the window corners before installation but otherwise didn't do anything special. It would be interesting to see an air test today, seven years after that project was completed.
To the comments about shopping locally. Seemray is the only "local" window company to us in Michigan and they are high on my list of choices. I would be willing to pay a bit of premium for a local supplier. We'll see in the end.
Alpen and Logic we checked with, but shipping costs are not that different than from Europe. Price on the windows themselves were nearly $20k more, for the TR6. The TR9 is actually the similar product and it was triple the price. Lead times were shorter, but only by about 30%. I could order nearly my entire window schedule twice over from Europe (shipping included) at the same price. I would love to support the market developing here, but that's too much difference. I do not doubt the quality here, but it's still niche in the US and standard in Europe. Poland is where most of the European windows are made. Alpen, Seemray, Logic, and Litezone would still be the first places I'd recommend someone look.
We also looked at Litezone for fixed windows. But they are far from us, so shipping made it very prohibitive when you account for the fact that you need to ship another batch of windows from elsewhere.
Tim , where are you in MI? I am designing a new build for Charlevoix, would be interested in comparing notes.
Sure, sounds good. We are building out in Dexter, just outside Ann Arbor. Haven't started yet, finishing up the design still. Hoping to start sometime in the late spring as Owner/Builder.
Feel free to email me at [email protected].
A few months ago, priced out an Alpen Tyrol Tilt & Turn triple pane window about 40" x 40" with black frames (U-Value of 0.15) and it came out to around $1k. What is the pricing coming out of Europe?
Don't forget if you order windows from Europe, they better have a mechanism to allow for expansion/contraction of the IGU's or the glass will explode/implode once it arrives here in the states. Alpen uses Mylar balloons with breathing tubes to keep the glass from exploding as it's transported over differing elevations.
Intus windows had this problem years ago and since then, they no longer ship or sell to residential and nothing ships over the mountains. It's all sea level sales.
They do have some pretty big mountains in Europe too. But yes, shipping over the mountains, may need to keep it in mind. Alpen partly does that because they need to account for it everywhere they go since they are manufactured at altitude.
Debesto has a pricing calculator on their website for the basics. A 40x40 black on black of the Salamander Blueevolution82 is 250 euro. Which is close to 1 for 1 with the dollar now. Shipping is $5000+7% of your order for a container regardless of fill.
Please come back and update us if you proceed with the imports. Would be curios as to how it goes and your view of the windows.
I only contacted European manufacturers who had a local rep office.
I will do that if I end up importing. With my final window schedule, I will run it past the US suppliers first. I didn't mean to start this thread as a debate, as I know the US suppliers provide just as high quality a product with a better warranty. I just wanted to show an option to obtain physical samples to anyone who was considering a European brand and not able to see them in person. They had a lot more brand options available as well.