Does this new roof need to be redone?
We are building a new home, and I’m a real stickler for the best moisture control possible. We had dealt with serious water damage from bad roofing at our last home. We had planned to roof our new house ourselves, so we would know it was done right. However, after we installed the underlayment, I developed a health issue which prevented me from finishing the job.
So, we found the very best roofer we could in our area, a Platinum preferred contractor for our Owens Corning shingles with awesome independent reviews.
Winter hit hard and early, and it was just 20 F when they arrived on our job a month later. I explained my concerns about moisture control, and that I was a stickler for strictly following manufacturer instructions. I had an important appointment that day, and couldn’t remain on the job site after they started.
Unfortunately, I discovered later that they have NOT followed many manufacturer instructions. I’m trying to determine which ones are important enough to push to have some or all of it redone. I’d appreciate any feedback.
1) They took frozen bundles of shingles and draped them over the roof ridge – 2-3 bundles deep.
2) They failed to follow cold weather installation recommendations of hand sealing shingles at the rakes, and nailing all of the shingles in the lower half of the Sureseal strips.
3) Instead of evenly spreading the 4 nails across the shingles, they regularly installed 3 nails in mostly the left half of the shingles, and a single 4th nail in the right half.
4) 10-20% of the nails are installed at an angle, instead of level with the surface of the shingles.
5) They nailed the pipe boots in the lower exposed flange, instead of keeping all nails underneath shingles.
6) The Grace ice and water shield specifies installing roof covering over their product only when its above 40 F degrees (it never reached that temp).
7) They installed California Valleys, but did not use any roofing cement either under the vertical shingles running along the valley, or under the corners of the shingles sitting in the valleys on top of the vertical shingles.
8) The starter strips and first courses were extended 1″ (or more) beyond the drip edges at both rakes and eaves, instead of the specified flush or less than 3/4″.
9) They failed to follow several of the installation instructions for my Shinglevent II ridge vents, and I’ve already confirmed with the manufacturer that the 30 year warranty has been voided and the vent is likely to leak.
I have already confronted the roofers about the shingle bundles being draped over the roof ridge, which is specifically forbidden by Owens Corning. They just insisted that it will NOT cause any problems. And even if it did, the roofer offers a 50 year labor warranty on their work.
But their labor warranty will not cover the cost of replacement materials AND it would not cover water damage inside the home. And, because they failed to follow installation instructions, it may void my shingle warranty coverage.
I really wanted a solid, leak-proof roof for the next 20 years. A previous roof that I had installed myself held up just great. I don’t want to go through the hell I did with a bad roof on my last home (the leaks were hidden inside walls).
Any suggestions on how to handle this situation, and what should be done? I should hopefully be able to get them to redo the ridge vents and some other items – but the bad nailing patterns over the entire roof isn’t fixable without a complete redo, which they will likely argue isn’t necessary. And I don’t know if it is – but I don’t want to spend the next 20 years worrying about my roof. We are in climate zone 4A, in Virginia.
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Replies
Not even touching this one!
And that means what?
That nailing schedule seems crappy.
For a small increase in cost/labor i use 6 nails per shingle. The 130 mph wind rating.
I also use starter strip along all eaves and rakes. Drip edge also along all roof trim. All roof trim pvc not wood, stainless nails only.
Did they use ice and water in the valleys?
As we were originally planning to do the roofing ourselves (before I got a blood clot in my leg), we had installed the underlayment and drip edges ourselves. So, yes, we have Grace ice and water in all the proper places, including the valleys. And we installed wider and sturdier drip edges than are commonly available.
But, since Grace specifies only nailing through their material at temps above 40 F, I'm concerned that the nails may not be "water tight" when shot through the much colder, stiffer material. I'm waiting to hear back from a Grace rep.
Have you paid them yet?
If they did not install to the manufacturers specifications, and you have a contract saying they must, you have a point
Every professionally installed roof I have stripped has been high nailed. My neighbors A frame has shingles falling off of the building due to being high nailed.
Real problem is that I don't know if there is a real win here for you, I doubt he is going to volunteer a new roof
On the upside:
The Grace will stick fine
IF the shingles are laying flat now they are probably ok after bending over the ridge
The ridge vent is easy to replace.
And most shingle warrantees are not worth the paper they are written on, so there is that....
The building code "requires" contractors to follow manufacturer instructions, though they frequently don't. And I've learned the hard way that just because a contract specifies certain requirements doesn't mean that the contractor will follow the specs. If you refuse to pay them for failure to meet the contract, they'll just put a mechanics lien on your property and force you to take them to court or settle. Been there with a previous contractor.
As we couldn't afford the time or money for court, we had to settle to get the lien released - which didn't come close to covering the cost of correcting their terrible work. The only thing we could do was file a thoroughly documented complaint with the state licensing agency, who eventually charged them with multiple violations and will sanction them. But the state can't help us with the cost of getting the work fixed.
I did the best I could to find a good roofer for this new contract. I realize that shingle warranties are practically useless - which is why I wanted the shingles to be installed strictly following the instructions, to reduce possible future issues. I'm just trying to figure out how serious some of these potential roofing issues are, so I can decide what to do about it. These shingles don't appear to be "high nailed", but the nailing pattern is extremely unbalanced and isn't remotely close to the instructions.
+1
The reason you can't get the shingle mfg to state it is not properly installed is the roofer is their customer. They don't want to alienate their customer. They have evaluated it and decided you just bought shingles; they have no chance of you, as an individual homeowner buying more shingles any time soon. The roofer buys shingles every day. They want that roofer to buy their brand and the more they support the roofers position the more likely he or she is to select that brand.
Huber is the same way - had a contractor get a letter from Huber stating the ways nails were overdriven in Zip sheathing on a project is acceptable and within Huber standards. Have seen plenty of examples online of nails far less overdriven than mine that Huber states violate their install requirements. It is all about who is asking for the determination.
This particular roof may be a lost cause. You need to decide what resolution you are willing to live with - does the roof need to be removed and reinstalled, or can revisions be made that will make what is there acceptable. Then you need to decide if you will allow the roofer who did this to correct it or if you require someone else to do this. You also need to decide how much money you are willing to invest to meet your goal.
There are third party roofing inspectors you can hire who will inspect your actual install and give you a supposedly unbiased report. These are NOT inspectors who work for any of the roofing mfg. They are independent. You could get such a report that includes recommended actions to take for resolution. Take that report to another roofer and get a quote to implement the roofing inspector recommendations. Then send your roofer a certified letter stating you will withhold the quoted amount from their payment due to the deficiencies, and send them the roofing inspector report. Then you have to decide if you will allow them to fix their own errors. They will want the opportunity to do that. You will want your roofing inspector there on site when the errors are fixed. Who should pay for the roofing inspector? If your contract does not have an inspection clause, you will be left paying for it. I'd start with charging that back to the roofer and settling on the roofing only paying a small portion of the inspection costs.
Yes the roofer can lien your property, but if you have a good contract, and send a certified letter supported by a third party inspection to indicate your deductions from the total amount, and pay the roofer the balance of what is owed, you have a good defense and can try to have the lien dismissed.
Sorry to hear.
Not reading the instructions, shoddy work and then "don't worry, it will be fine, I've done many like this" is far too common. I'd like to see more discussion of how to prevent this.
I knew a contractor doing large commercial work. He had to agree to very pro-customer contracts along the lines of "if you do anything not to spec, we hire inspectors, engineers, lawyers and someone else to redo the work - and you pay for all of it - from your bond". He was super careful about doing things right. His less careful competitors went bankrupt.
Yes, I've heard that exact quote from nearly every single contractor that's worked for me.
Hmm... I like that contract that has them pay for shoddy work to be corrected by someone else - from their bond. But I doubt any residential contractor would agree to that.
I have directly asked Owens Corning if this nailing pattern voids my warranty, or could cause performance issues in the future. They won't say if it voids my warranty, just that:
"We only test our shingles when the nails are placed in the exact patterns described in the installation instructions, therefore we can not say whether a different pattern would cause performance issues or not."
So, I don't have anything solid to show my contractor that the nailing may be a real issue. But I bet if there are any future issues, Owens Corning would not honor the warranty, due to the nailing protocol not being followed. So frustrating!
Debra,
Just want to say how sorry I am about this. You have been here diligently asking questions, and carefully acquiring the information you need for a successful build. This just seems unfair.
Thank you, Malcolm. I've spent the last 3 years researching and studying how to build the best home I can within my budget. I just wish I could do all of the work myself, as then I know the work would be done right. But I'm a 62 year old female, and I just can't handle the heavier work.
My roof is so critical to good long-term moisture control. I was determined to do it myself, until my health prevented it. And now it looks like I may have to accept much of the crappy work done by the contractor. You're right - it's so unfair!
The manufacturers won’t want to state in writing anything that they haven’t specifically tested. They don’t want any liability either.
For future contracts, require that the contractor name you as “additionally insured” on their liability policy. This should be easy for them to do, then request their “insurance cert” which will be an “accord form” and will come FROM THEIR INSURANCE AGENT directly, not from the contractor. The accord form will list all their policy limits and will list you in the “additionally insureds” box.
What this means is that you can go to their insurance company directly and not have to go through your contractor to file a claim. You now have some leverage, since you can do something without having to have your contractor be your middleman.
Getting the insurance to cover contract obligations means you need a performance bond. Performance bonds cost money. As one of my subcontractors likes to say “you know we can do the work because we CAN get bonded”. Insurers won’t bond companies that have poor reputations since the insurers don’t want to be paying out money to complete and fix projects. Many residential buildings will likely not want to deal with getting a performance bond though.
I do mostly commercial work, where it’s common to have VERY detailed contracts (full AIA contract packages, for example), detailed insurance requirements, being named additionally insured, verifying everything, etc. residential work tends to be much more “seat of the pants” as they say. You can borrow some of the commercial standards to help keep your own contractors in line though. The “additionally insured” thing is easy to do. Even if your contractor doesn’t know what it is, they can call their agent who surely will be able to do it, often for no additional cost as it’s pretty common to do. VERIFY that that’s been done by requesting the accord form.
I always require performance bonds when going with low bids that are significantly lower than other bidders. I often require performance bonds for other jobs too, especially critical things that will delay other trades. The downside is that the contractor will pass the cost of the bond through to you, so you’ll pay for that service.
Always have a detailed contract, and make sure it’s signed by all parties. Make sure the people signing the contract are authorized to sign on behalf of whomever they are representing. That’s another problem that I’ve seen — “so and so wasn’t authorized to sign contracts”. Be careful.
Eventually things often end up in court when it gets really bad. For smaller jobs, threatening to deal with the contractors insurance company if you’re additionally insured at least gives you some leverage over the contractor.
One last thing: I don’t trust reviews of contractors made by homeowners. Most homeowners can’t really properly evaluate a contractor. “Finished on time” may sound good, but what if the contractor took lots of short cuts to do that? The best thing to do is to have one contractor you trust, and have them recommend others that they trust. The trouble then is finding that first “trusted” contractor. Unfortunately there are a lot of bad contractors out there.
Bill
Thanks for sharing all of that information and suggestions, Bill. I now completely agree about not trusting reviews provided by homeowners. Very few of them know enough to accurately judge the quality of the work. I really wish that it was possible to obtain performance bonds for residential work. There is no practical way to enforce a contract without one.
Having yourself named as an additionally insured is a good practice, but don't get the idea that any insurance company will get involved in a quality dispute between you and a sub. They won't. Additional insured extends a contractors General Liability coverage to the owner, so that their insurance company does not go subrogate against your own liability insurer to cover a liability claim. Poor installation is not necessarily a liability claim.
Another thing to specify in your contract and look for on the Acord insurance form is completed operations coverage. Some contracts required 5-7-10 years completed operations. You would have a far easier time successfully collecting against a completed operations policy IF something actually goes wrong and there is a verifiable claim directly the result of the incorrect install during the coverage period than you would as an additional insured.
Bill,
Excellent advice!
The getting named as additionally insured I news to me.
I'm usually of the opinion that contracts don't mean anything (with resi contractors, commercial is a different story). So I eventually stopped wasting the time writing rock solid specs and contracts since most won't follow it and taking them to court is useless if not a detriment. BUT the insurance thing is very interesting!
Thank you for sharing.
Jamie
You should still have a contract. Contracts are agreements “I will do this, then you will do that”. If you don’t have it on paper, the chances for finger pointing down the road is MUCH higher. If you don’t have a contract, and you DO have to go to court, things will be MUCH more difficult for you. I would never do a project without a contract, but the complexity of the job dictates how complex the contract needs to be. I’ll be a lot more detailed on a $100k job than on a $1,000 job, for example.
You might be able to use contract language to get a lien released or voided, but that would be something to ask a lawyer, and would need to be done BEFORE starting a project.
Bill
I sympathize about how contracts are almost useless for residential work. Except for our arborist taking down some trees and the company installing our water and sewer line, every single contractor we've used has failed to follow our contract specifications.
They do what they want and how they want, and don't care what's in writing. I am soooo tired of following around behind them, double-checking their work, and saying day after day: "That doesn't meet code", "That's not what's in our contract", or "That does't follow the manufacturer instructions".
One contractor made over 50 errors in just 62 days, starting with 2 code violations and a stop work order from the town on the first day, and ending with pouring our foundation without first obtaining inspection approval (and pouring the foundation 7" too low). Even with all those mistakes, he put a mechanic's lien on our property to force a settlement, as court would have cost us more than the amount we were contesting. At least the state will end up sanctioning him for some of those issues.
No joking intended. But it sounds like most contractors here in VA, at least southwest VA, are hot on moonshine. Class A contractor my seatpants.
And forget about "certified installers" from the manufacturers. One guy owns a certificate (toiletpaper), employee's lack training and oversight, combined with high rates of turnover.
Furthermore, big box stores can't be trusted for supplying materials in bulk, especially in southern climes where they run a monopoly. (no mom and pop lumber yards in biz) I'm trying to figure out if they sell factory seconds, etc, because I just refused 25 squares of O.C. roofing for being damaged, algae infested and lacking color uniformity.
Keep us posted