Cost Comparisons: Simple vs. Complex House Shapes
Hello GBA, I am suffering through the design phase of home building and figured I’d make a post for some guidance, or maybe as a sanity check. My partner and I are trying to build a pretty good house (love the book) on some land that we own outright. We are in central NC, edge of zones 3/4. Home will be 1600ft. Based on everything I’ve read, in the interest of sticking to a budget, I’ve gone for a rectangular house with 4 corners and a single gable roof line. 2×6 walls, blown insulation, advanced faming, slab foundation with the concrete finished as the first floor. Two bathrooms. Flat ceiling and a vented attic. Double pane windows. The ‘out of the ordinary’ request for my area would be a rain screen, air sealing to below 3ACH50 and an ERV. My problem is that none of the builders I’ve talked to seem to care one bit about the shape of the house or how it’s actually built. Do these things actually matter in the real world, or am I just designing in extra profit for the builders? I can’t get any bids under $350 a sq ft (that’s without a rain screen, the only builder who knew how to do that was $550/ft) despite trying to limit every embellishment. Talking about details, example spray foam insulated attics vs blown cellulose in a vented setup mostly gets me blank stares and something like ‘we could do that’ but nothing seems to effect any numbers. I keep reading that energy efficient techniques can be achieved without great added cost, but I’m just not seeing it in reality. Do I just need to chill out and these considerations will come later? Or just keep searching until a builder seems interested in something other than code minimum/profit maximum? That’s my rant, thanks for any advice -Kaden
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Yes, form matters. And having a builder that is thinking about more than code minimum/profit maximum matters. To get what you want you may be looking at custom home builders that are more expensive than your average production builders.
Maybe look into aerobarrier for added air tightness if the builders will not consider changing their techniques?
Your design sounds simple and cost effective, I hope you have some luck finding a contractor that will help you achieve your goals without breaking the bank
Yes, form matters; building simple shapes shaves many hours and a significant amount of material compared to the stacked gable-on-gable-on-gable designs that are popular now. But it can be hard to find builders who know or care about the differences. In my area, coastal Maine, $350-$400/sf is the starting price for a high-quality home, whether built to PGH principles or not. Building a high-quality home is expensive no matter what the details look like.
For $550 / sq ft I'll move to NC and set up residence myself! That's insanity.
Do you have detailed drawings and specifications? You might find that asking a builder to build a PGH with a limited list of desired characteristics gets out of the builder's comfort zone. But lots of details about how to get what you want might help.
Our PGH was built by a contractor who had never done a double stud wall or worried about airtightness. But the drawings were detailed enough that he could do what we wanted. He did a great job, reaching PH level of airtightness.
I have been thinking about this and while I have gathered a large collection of details and articles, I haven't presented them to any builders yet. I have begun narrowing them down and assembling into what will hopefully be an easily digestible package.
My original hope was that a builder would have suggestions for me based on how they have solved challenges in the past, and that we could go from there. I really didn't want to go into a conversation with a professional and try to tell them what to do, but maybe most builders need more guidance when doing something out of the ordinary.
Those prices are absolutely brutal / not at all shocking in 2023. You sound like a savvy homeowner. If it's within your time/physical constraints to be your own builder/GC, do as much work as you can yourself*, and sub out the rest, I bet you could get it to $175-$300/SF.
*Depending on how strict your AHJ is... you'd be surprised how much you can save doing mechanicals, for example.
I'll give just one example, which is something you can do after dry-in, and take your time to get right: Unless you're cutting dumb corners, wiring a brand new house is one of the easiest things in all construction, in my opinion. It's harder to get a Level 3 drywall finish or trim out a window. If your AHJ allows it, or you find a friendly electrician, you could try your hand at it, pay the electrician to look over your work, then in comes the inspector. The cost of framing or a tiled shower can be eye-popping, but the cost of even basic mechanical work is insane. I can't believe what a plumber charges to run 2 pipes to a water heater. But in some jurisdictions, you have no choice.
I'm not advocating anyone to just "give it a college try" with wiring -- rather I'm saying that learning to wire a 1600 SF home is well within the conceptual abilities of anyone who can write the OP. Your income/interests/abilities dictate the reality of course, but you might be surprised at how much of that $X/SF goes to electric. And this is just one example.
A less touchy example might be air-sealing. You will NEVER find a decent builder who even knows the terms "air-sealing" or "ERV" without getting charged out the a$$. This guy had no previous pro building experience and did an insanely good job by himself: https://kimchiandkraut.net/blog/.
James, I would love to do this, and I have the skillset for most of the work, it's just the time that I don't have, living 50 minutes from the land and having a fulltime on-site job. I got one quote down to about $300/ft if I took care of all paint, trim, and everything in both bathrooms and kitchen. If I get frustrated enough we may go this route
Our world seems to be divided into people in business solely to make money -as much as they can as fast as they can- and those who still care about "craft." I see this not just in the building trades, but many other places too. A "hyper capitalist" approach is now the norm and it calls for efficiency and profit maximization all the time. The result is that it is very difficult to get a product that is not a cookie cutter-least common denominator type of product in terms of quality, form, function and detail. This is why we have outsourced most of our manufacturing to low pay third world countries so we can consume large quantities of cheap goods instead of modest quantities of well made goods.
The only way off this treadmill is to keep searching. Look for builders who contribute to fine homebuilding or other construction magazines. Look for people who contribute to these and other forums dedicated to doing things a better way. Perhaps seek out an architect who seems a bit more willing to do the right thing and may know the right builder (maybe someone more recently graduated from school). Look around college communities, especially where there is a school of architecture that might atttract folks looking to transform an industry.
Or, do what I and many others are doing more and more.......do it yourself. It is not as hard as you think.
I am near NCSU which has a college of design (which I graduated from) and they have an architecture program. I think I'll have to seek out some starving grad school kids as the established alumni are asking $40-50k additional for design work, a non-starter.
I had a similar experience. I found many builders that gave me crazy high numbers. What finally worked for me is a builder that would build on a cost plus + 15% model. He doesn’t really care what I ask him to do because his price just scales up as a I add details. I thought I would have saved money on some items but I found it took a lot of communication to have the trades do anything different. I also do not speak Spanish…
I also did all the air sealing in the evenings after the builders left. As for rain screen, use a vented mat product and your builder won’t have any real concerns, the cost to add it is very similar to installing the wrb. My cost looks to be $227/ft2 in Utah. I had other builders quote as high as $327/ft2. Best of luck.
You might be a good candidate for a prefabbed panelized wall system, then all the thinking about the wall assembly is done in the factory. You will still need a contractor to put it together to the manufacturers specs.
Sadly, don't expect the relationship to get better. At the beginning is when everyone is trying their hardest to impress each other. If they're not listening to you now it's not going to be better later.
Good point. I should probably really drive the details up front, before I'm on the hook halfway through a wayward build
A complicated shape mostly makes your framing, siding and roofing a bit harder. It does add cost to these but not as much as you would think. Most of the cost for a house come from interior finishes and services, which cost the same no matter what shape house you build.
If you do price each item out separately (which is hard unless you are the GC on the project), you'll definitely see cost savings, siding on complicated wall can easily double install price. Same with a metal roof.
Where a simple shape does make a big difference is thermal efficiency and envelope performance. I can tell you a simple house shape is WAY easier to air seal and much easier to insulate properly. The problem is for a trade that has never done this, this cost save doesn't matter much.
I think it might be helpful to find an architect who can put your desired design into details that a builder can understand and price out. Having a folder of articles is great for your organizing but I can imagine it would be difficult to get a builder to spend an evening reading through them. (Why would they if another landowner will accept their quote without doing homework.)
A designer or architect does not have to be local so you can get them from anywhere. you may be limited to an architect in your state because they need the correct stamp but it may be worth looking in another market for a designer.
This might not help on price but it may help to communicate what you want a contractor and help them wrap their head around these nee details. Good luck!
StuSid,
Designers or architects don't have to local, but they do need to be conversant with local codes, bylaws, and construction practices where you are considering building.
Thanks Stu, this is my current homework assignment, to get details together in a convenient and brief package.
Think from a builders side
'Build me a house about this big that kind of looks like this and has these features.'
compared to walking in with a set of plans with a foundation plan, window spec list and siding spec and kitchen and bath details
"Give me a firm price to build something I haven't really described, with a lot of fussy details."
That's a great way to get huge estimates! I'll sometimes ballpark things that way, but when it's time to get real bids, there has to be a real bid spec for the bidders to bid on. That means you really need plans first. Your architech can probably give you a rough idea what construction costs MIGHT be, but contractors will want to know what they are building before they bid on building it. The less detail you can provide, the more "maybe" is in the project, and "maybe" is EXPENSIVE!
BTW, whenever buying anything involving land, you ideally want three things: a copy of the deed as filed with the county (or other entity that handles that record keeping in your area), a copy of any HOA agreements/bylaws/etc., and a survey. The deed will tell you what conditions are on the land, which can include weird stuff like mineral rights exceptions (you can buy land but not own the minerals under it, for example), and if you agree to be in an HOA (that goes on the deed too). Deeds are supposed to show rights of way (crossings for wires and pipes owned by utility companies), but that stuff can be tricky sometimes.
HOA agreements tell you about what you'll have to do RIGHT NOW, but remember that those things (HOA rules and fees) can change over time based on what the HOA's elected leadership decides to do. I don't like the possibility for conditions to change in the future in that way, and I personally won't buy land where I have to be a member of an HOA in part for that reason.
A survey SHOULD (remember the "tricky" part, above) show things like rights of way on your land, and the boundaries for your land. The survey should match the description of the land on the deed. Note that you also want to see the result of a title search agains the land, which should clear up any questions as to ownership, but also tends to mean the title company will provide insurance that covers you in the event someone challenges YOUR ownership of the land. That can be useful sometimes.
Land rights get weird. I've had to deal with a lot of screwy stuff when doing utility work and filing for / buying easements for our fiber optic lines to cross people's land. The thing I always find especially weird is the old descriptions of the land referencing things like "oak tree" or "big rock by the stream", and then so many chains or paces from those objects. The history of this stuff can be interesting, but is something of a rabbit hole if you have to dig into anything.
Bill
We were given a survey and deed, but no mention of the covenants, only hint was 'the neighborhood splits road maintenance periodically, in an informal manner' we found the covenants ourselves when digging through county records as they were attached to the original plot when it was first divided. Only restrictions are building size and that we split road maintenance.
I am working with a floor plan, and elevations, but no I don't have cross sections, MEP, etc. Didn't think I'd need them for a 2x6 wall, cavity insulation, and flange windows. Obviously I am wrong and will work on that.
Contrary to what everyone here is saying, most of the locals in the business that I've talked to have been uninterested in details, and several have given the advice of providing a very simple basic drawing of how I want rooms laid out and they'll take it from there.
I'm starting to realize that the GBA community is extremely different than the NC building community at large. I am going to re-group and get a refined, clear design direction before presenting to more builders. I have been talking to a great designer, but was afraid to commit before knowing my project was even feasible within budget. It seems I have it backwards, and the 'different is scary' mentality may be hurting me.
To be clear, there are quality builders and designers here, but the ones I've found implementing good practices are building multi million dollar homes. Can't blame them, but they aren't interested in a project like mine.
kewilso3,
"I'm starting to realize that the GBA community is extremely different than the NC building community at large."
I suspect that is true a lot of places. Being interesting in the rational, science-based approach to building, the GBA community sometimes overestimates how widespread this approach is in the wider construction industry.
The (perhaps unfortunate) reality is that each market will differ in how projects are priced, and what factors builders use to decide how they will quote a job. The bottom line is that in a capitalist economy, what it will cost to get any house built is entirely dependent on what a contractor in your area is willing do the work for.
Did you not get title insurance when it was purchased? If the title commitment did not show CC&Rs and you found then afterwards, you need to call the title company.
I ran into a similar struggle. We were given some really high quotes for our area with generic ideas in mind. It's hard to go to a designer or architect and say what exactly you want as well, because you don't want to spend a lot of money to design something that you will never afford... I made a pretty in depth spreadsheet and tried to estimate every cost as much as I can for a roughly similar house to what you describe. In the end, we are thinking we will GC ourselves.
What gives me some hope that I'm not off the track too far - one of the architects that told us the high cost of custom home building also has plans for a pre-certified passive house. Roughly 1600sqft interior, and he has it designed and quoted by a few builders to match the cost of tract homes.
This is such a great thread. I plan to share it with Lloyd Alter, who recently wrote this article: Benefits of Simple Building Forms. Clearly, a follow-up dive into real-world cost comparisons between simple vs. complex building shapes would be valuable.
Great article that helped drive my decision making process. I would love to see an actual cost comparison between two homes that read similarly on paper but have different forms.
I see a lot of comments from a lot of knowledgeable people and admit to not having read most of them on this thread. So please excuse me if I repeat someone else's.
I have degrees in architecture and structural engineering but have worked mostly as a project manager. Whenever I can, and to help wake contractors up to facing issues and being upfront, I ask for estimates to include a breakdown of their schedule, labor, materials, overhead and profit. I want it all spelled out. I want them to tell me how they determined their schedule, for each trade.
If they're at all hungry for the work and any good at their jobs they'll comply. On the other hand, if they are in high demand, then there's not a whole lot you can do unless you're ready to act as your own general contractor and perhaps even take on some of the tasks yourself.
It's ridiculous for a rainscreen system to add so much cost. That's the sort of thing that needs to be justified with a breakdown of tasks and associated labor-hours.
edit - I just read a bit more of the comment thread. You absolutely need to have thorough plans and details. The drawings need to be better than the builders expect and with no conflicts. Anything less and you're shooting yourself in the foot. This is one reason why people hire design professionals. Pay a GOOD designer to do that for $10K and you will get more than that back in construction cost savings. The idea is to remove as much of the sense of risk as possible for the builder. Give them certainty and they can give you a tighter price.
I would concentrate on building an airtight "box" and then just attaching the attic space and exterior cladding system to it.
The way I'm doing it with the exterior walls is to bring the sheathing down over the 1st floor rim board and seal the edges of the sheathing to the rim board (and around all punched openings) with accoustical sealant. The sheathing also laps over the 2nd floor rim board to anchor the attic trusses to the main floor walls.
As to air sealing the attic, I plan on building an attic floor deck (much like a standard 2nd floor system) sheathing the top of the joists and then placing the trusses on top of the deck. This completely separates the attic from the interior conditioned space - plus a bonus is that you can run pipes, wiring, HVAC equipment and install pot lights within this attic floor deck system (since these would be within conditioned space).
Essentially, the house is now divided into two completely separate zones - an air sealed and insulated box with a vented attic sitting on top of it. Then just apply your cladding system to the walls.
This is exactly what I want to do, on a slab. Build an airtight box, put a roof over it, and finish it out while poking as few holes at possible. Nothing fancy. I've been telling this to builders, right before they start talking about spray foam and how great attic storage is. I need a comprehensive drawing set.
“Only restrictions are building size and that we split road maintenance.”
You need to have a better understanding about who’s land the road is on and what easements there are in place.
It is possible the road is on your neighbor’s land and you have an easement for egress with or without utilities or vise versa.
Seemingly normal people can suddenly become crazy and unreasonable for no apparent reason or the next owner could be insane from the start.
I know someone on a private road with 15 or so others. The people at the front are unwilling to pay for any part they do not travel over so nothing gets repaired.
Walta
Sorry for not re-writing the entire legal package here. Could you tell me what I know about who’s land the road is on and what easements there are in place? Wait that's not what this question is about. Why are we even talking about that here? I will take that out of my initial post as it's not of concern, and people keep fixating on it instead of the real issue.