Has Spray Foam Gotten any Better?
Has anyone noticed a decrease in frequency of spray foam disasters over last ten years? While researching closed-cell spray foam for an application in my home I noticed that the dates of many spray foam horror stories tend to cluster around 2009-2011. –> Is this consistent with what you all have read and/or experienced? Or is my sample size too small?
In Martin’s Sept 2011 blog post, “Spray foam jobs with lingering odor problems,” he quotes Demilec rep Mac Sheldon as predicting “major improvements” within the next 18 months. –> Did these improvements occur? If yes, what were they?
Thanks for any insight. Grateful for this resource and community.
GBA Detail Library
A collection of one thousand construction details organized by climate and house part
Replies
I think the amount of spray foam installs is actually MORE now than it used to be, partly due to more people seeming to be interested in good insulation, and partly due to spray foam just being better known now.
I think the biggest reason for better installation quality is because the installers are more expierienced now. Spray foam installation problems are almost always due to the mix getting messed up at the site, and sometimes also due to temperature problems. Expierienced installers can tell as they lay down layers of spray foam whether there is a problem with the mix or not, and they can make adjustments as they go to keep things working correctly. New crews won't have the needed expierience to do this as well, so they're more likely to have problems.
That's my opionion on the matter anyway :-) I do think your sample size probably isn't big enough though, and keep in mind that people are far more likely to post horror stories than they are to post success stories. Even back a decade ago, there would have been far more spray foam installs that went in just find than there were problems, but you didn't see people posting things like "Help! My spray foam install went perfectly and now my heating bill is too small!".
Bill
Good point re the development of talent in the industry. Hopefully that is not counter-acted by the attrition that occurs elsewhere in construction. I don't know how we would tell but it is a nice thought.
My main takeaway from this conversation, since nobody has commented on the purported "improvements" suggested ten years ago by the rep mentioned above, is that 1) the potentially harmful chemistry of the product is integral to its usefulness and 2) quality of install is still paramount to both performance and health (read: not ruining the house.)
Bill's right about the internet not being rife with success stories, but nevertheless, Nathan, I think you're optimism is not well founded. As long as there's no effective code inspection, industry standards, national regulation, or a good ol' fashioned class action lawsuit, spray foam debacles will continue. And because nobody is effectively tracking their occurrence, we have to rely on the steady stream of anecdotes. Is spray foam failure occurring at a higher rate than other construction boondoggles? Don't know.
The latest anecdote came yesterday across my YouTube suggestion stream. It's a DIY builder going into some detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=empMr5L1I6o
Not an odor problem, more of a whole-envelope problem. He's mitigating his disastrous flash & batt failure by engaging ANOTHER spray foam contractor to add more spray foam. It doesn't look like he's getting competent advice from anyone. In the course of the narrative, he mentions that some of his subscribers have found similar problems in THEIR homes.
What exactly went wrong on that Youtube job?
Andy,
You correctly detected some wishful thinking behind my question. I appreciate the gut check.
Seems to me that in addition to relying on anecdotes, we also need good Rules of Thumb (a la the Pretty Good House manifesto) to aid homeowners/contractors in safely using this product. There are many articles on GBA about drawbacks of spray foam and it seems like each on covers about 80% of the important information. And this makes sense, because the issue touches on envelope, assembly, climate, intended use of the space, installer skill etc. etc. and resists reduction to simple guidelines.
I am trying to collect a list of such rules of thumb and I'll post when I'm done. Hopefully it will be a useful synopsis not a poor reworking of all the good articles on this site...
I had my basement insulated with spray foam about a year and half ago. It was not a disaster (no odour or curing problems) but I did have to call the insulation contractors back twice (3 visits into total) to to touch up the foam. First callback was because they missed some areas and the foam was too thin in others. Second was because it was still too thin. I noticed that on the third visit, they sent a different technician along with the two that initially did the job. He appeared to be quite a bit older than the other two...don't want to be ageist, but maybe had more experience and they got tired of coming back.
I think spray foam can be great but it's important to go get the right technician and it's a bit of a gamble about whether you will get a good one (unless you've done repeated jobs with the same technician). If I get spray foam done again, I would use the same company (they're still supposedly the best in my area) but here's what I would do differently:
1. Let the company know that I will be inspecting the job very carefully to check: a) coverage b) uniform depth, and c) with an IR camera to look for hidden voids. So it's in their interest to send their best technician they have in order to avoid callbacks.
2. Set things up in a way so that they have visual depth guides. If it's a wall, draw lines in the stud bays marking where the foam should come to (or just fill the bay completely). Or install a few rigid foam blocks of the correct depth to use as a visual guide.
3. Check everything really carefully after the installation, ideally with an IR camera
The spray foam contractor I like to use gives his customers a can of spray paint at the end of the job and asks them to go mark anywhere they think is too thin. He then goes back and fills in those areas before leaving the site. I think this is a very good idea and I recommend it to others.
It is in the best interests of both the customer AND the contractor to get things done right the first time. No one likes callbacks.
Bill
Where I live, they have some kind of regulation that prohibits the homeowners from being in the building for 24hrs after the spray foam job is done. So the contractors can't hang around until the customer's inspection is complete.
I'm actually okay with that. From what I understand, the VOCs coming off the foam shortly after it's installed are pretty noxious. So, they have to just get it right when they install it.
It's easy enough to filter the fumes with a respirator. I do recommend to my customers to do the spray foam work on a Friday, then takee the weekend to go visit relatives or to otherwise be out of the house. Leave a few windows cracked while you're gone too.
I haven't heard of a regulation to stay out of the site before though.
Bill
Bill,
That seems like an unusually proactive approach to QC. Impressive. Yeah nobody likes callbacks but everybody likes wishful thinking and leaving on time. Good for him.
Patrick,
Useful story and thanks for the tips. Skillful communication of how the work will be evaluated seems key. Probably not something contractors are used to - just my opinion, but I am a carpenter and I see poorly articulated expectations all the time. I think that if we have to go back to the fine print of the contract we have already failed - the substance and spirit of the agreement should be obvious and adhered to by everyone.
I will get ahold of an IR camera. Thanks.
I've think a good recommendation for a homeowner is to ask for a written statement of how it would be handled if there was a case of uncured foam and persistent odors, and show that they adequate insurance to cover the liability they might incur. And maybe even review it with a lawyer to make sure it provides a solid legal basis.
If the contractor isn't confident enough in their work to bear that risk, I would not, as a homeowner, want to take it on either. If the contractor says the risk is negligible and that I should have confidence in them to avoid problems, they should not hesitate to offer an appropriate guarantee.
It might be possible to file claims against the contractors liability insurance policy in the case of really bad spray foam problems. I've never tried this, and don't know the details, but it MIGHT be something to keep in mind if anyone gets into one of those "I can't live in my house because of uncured spray foam" issues. Make sure the contractor has their insurer name you as "additionally insured" on their policy prior to start of work.
Bill
Charlie,
That sounds like a really sensible approach. Its hard to think of another building technique that has the potential to make a house unliveable and be almost impossible to remediate.
I had some places where the closed cell foam at my roofline didn't adhere to rafters/seem right (see pictures at https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/question/follow-up-flash-and-batt-at-roof-decking-1910-duplex)... the installers came back and filled in. It did seem like it took a while to fully cure. Smell was not too bad, it came out some on particularly hot days for a few months after, but was never so strong that it could be smelled on the second floor.