Composite Foundation Walls?
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Hello all,
After belittling my state for it’s poor building codes, builders and lack of innovation in my last question, I came across this product and am really intrigued:
http://www.compositepanelsystems.com/
In my state, erected in half a day with the sill plate and waterproofing. Cost is slightly higher than a poured foundation, but when I take into account the waterproofing is included, I think it will be a wash. It is fairly new though, and I like leading, not bleeding edge. Curious what Martin, Dana and the others think of it (or if you would use it).
Thanks,
Michael
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Replies
Michael,
I have no opinion. I've never seen this product. I guess it's fiberglass -- like a boat or a bathtub.
With new products like this, I'd be inclined to wait 10 years and let someone else be the guinea pig.
The website states "Since early 2013 over 60 homes in 9 states have been constructed using EPITOME Foundation Walls. The original model home has been in place atop the EPITOME Foundation Walls since October 2010."
Ive been involved with 2 homes using this foundation system. It has potential but the cost is not 1- 2% higher, at least not for the projects I was on and I was involved in costing.
Both were in 2015, I want to say the one was over $30k when a poured foundation would have been $12k. The panels are rock hard and having everything vertical from the floor was somewhat annoying, trimming base was really annoying as we had to use trim screws which are hard to hide.
I can install 2" eps, 2x4 framing with fiberglass fill and netting for around $15 a linear foot which basically covers the benefits of the wall, so straight panel costs would need to be in the $60-75 LF range to match poured with foamboard and fiberglass filled studwall.
Both customers loved the system and thought it was worth it, I as a builder thought their connection details were a little...startup. I noticed a lot more seepage than usual between the wall and footing prior to the floor pour than a typical poured wall. You save some square footage but not worth the upcharge in my opinion.
T. Carlson,
Thanks for sharing your experience. That's useful information.
Thanks T Carlson, I appreciate the insight. Once I get quotes for poured vs composite, I'll post an update as to what costs in 2018 are like. Were these builds in Wisconsin or out of state? I would be having them do the actual install.
Wausau WI area, they set the foundations although we set a garage frost wall. I did have some questions for them and they were accomodating and sent an installers PDF so I could relate some details to my crew.
And speaking of garage frost walls, since the top elevation is above the garage slab and finishing in between each stud bay is basically impossible it looks terrible so you either live with it or cover it with something but then you have material close to slab level in a garage which tends to wear out quickly in our climate. Poured garage frost walls would have been a better idea in my opinion.
Thanks for the link, Michael. I spent more than 30 minutes on their website clicking through links but never learned the most basic thing about their product: what is the core and what are the skins made of? I gather the skins are fiberglass. If that is the case, I'd be very concerned about out gassing of toxic fumes. I hope that isn't the case.
Several SIP manufacturers offer polyurethane core, magnesium-oxide skin panels that are said to be suitable for basement construction since Mg-O2 boards are water resistant.
Hello Jay,
Still researching this myself, with a little google-fu I turned up this article. It states the cores are closed cell urethane foam and has some details regarding the other components in the fiberglass:
https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composites-for-builders-establishing-structural-foundations
I agree that they really should have that type of information on their website. Do you see anything from a materials standpoint in that article that would cause you concern?
In their gallery of completed foundations the picture of the prow front walkout with the orange Doosan excavator in the background is one of the houses I was talking about, we set the garage panels that are laying in the dirt on the right.
The house was a 6 piece modular and sat pretty good so their crew did a decent job of producing and assemblying to the correct dimensions.
Michael, the iso-polyester resin for the fiberglass would concern me. It's pretty nasty stuff IMO. If you're interested, maybe you could visit the factory. See if you could live with that awful fiberglass boat-factory styrene smell. You'd have to put up with it for a long time.
Jay,
I think the smell is of concern to factory workers, but not homeowners. Once cured, it shouldn't smell any more than a fiberglass bathtub or a fiberglass boat. (Or for that matter, than a fiberglass ladder or a fiberglass window frame.)
Thanks Jay, I'll ask to talk to some of the homeowners who have them if there was an issue with odor.
T Carlson, from a cost perspective, in trying to determine if the composites are near in price, I'm trying to determine what I won't need to buy/do if I decided to go with them; I would waterproof and insulate on the outside if the walls were concrete. As the composite walls are R16 and they use Blueskin on the seams that should eliminate:
1) A footing membrane, the walls won't wick water from the footer
2) Elastomeric coating on the exterior walls
3) 3" of external insulation all the way around
4) The sill plate is sealed and attached, so I don't have to do that
Is there anything I'm forgetting? As I would do the elastomeric and insulation myself, there is no labor savings, just materials.
I'm curious as to why they used them for the frost walls for the garage; what was the supposed advantage over using poured walls like you suggested? The main advantage I see for the product is conditioned spaces like the basement.
First, there is no smell.
They did not use any blueskin on either foundation, just the black tar on seams and at the exterior wall footing connection, must be something new.
Strip of poly is all you'd really need over the footing, if it were me I wouldn't even do that.
Studding interior to match the drywall ready benefit would need to be done, your basement wiring will go way faster and use a lot less wire in the wood studs versus coming down the epitome cavities. I had to drill a pilot hole for some NM staples when I did some wiring.
Sill plate on poured is actually an advantage, it allows you to square the house and build off the set sill versus snapped lines on their double sill, basically you have more flexibility to start perfect.
The reason for the garage frost wall was because of radiant in the garage floor.
You will need to parge coat or use ground break over the exposed foam but you will need to do that with the epitome as well, it would cost more to achieve a stucco type finish on epitome (lath needed) versus what it costs to parge coat foam. Ground break would obviously be a wash.
As far as 3" of foam, I would consider EPS. I did try it on an exterior insulation scenario and it held up great during building and takes the parge coat way better than scratching XPS, plus saved me $7 a sheet for 2".
I had been thinking of making a small ICF-style garage pit (mechanics pit) in my garage for working under the car. My garage slab will be insulated and I wanted the mechanics pit to be insulated too--thus the ICF. But it would be complicated to pour, I think. This CPS wall would be ideal for that if the price is right. It would simplify construction and still provide insulation to the pit. Also, it would give me a chance to try out the idea and see how it performs before committing it to a house basement. Thanks again for the link, Michael.
I used Superior Walls and looked at many projects before making the decision. For me, the cost was about the same as retaining wall and conventional poured foundation. The difference is, I am absolutely confident that the first floor will always be dry, i.e. will smell like air is fresh, and and never that mold/damp smell. The walls are indeed bullet proof (mold-proof, tornado-proof, termite-proof, rot-proof, etc.) and provided a much better platform for the framers going up.
Thanks again T Carlson. I thought that if I do go with the composite walls, as they don't recommend drilling through their integrated studs, I'd just attach some furring strips to their studs and attach the drywall to those. That would allow me to run anything horizontally I wanted without drilling, giving me a service cavity. That would also allow me to add more insulation than the R30 I would get if I just filled the cavities that are there and attached drywall. I would need quite a bit of foam to get a concrete wall up to R30; I'd also need more effort in my waterproofing steps to have the same level of confidence that it would be warm and dry, I would think. I've had water in my two previous homes that I had to fix, one by excavating most of the foundation. If nothing else, I really want the basement dry and as bulletproof as it can be without being ridiculously expensive.
That said, my brother-in-law does poured foundations, and the back of the envelope quote he gave me this weekend for a 9' high wall was incredibly low. Hopefully in about 3 weeks I'll be able to start to put things out for bid, and I can post back here what we decide, if we use the composite walls, and how it goes if folks are interested.