Chevy Bolt and other cheap EVs
Hi All, I always appreciate the smarts and dedication of the GBA Community. It’s time to replace the rusty 2003 CRV my son drives to school every day, roughly 70 – 80 miles round trip. He’d like an EV and a Chevy Certified 202o Bolt is really cheap around here. These things caught fire at first and GM even told owners to park outside to prevent burning down their house. I’m guessing they figured that out by now. A used Model 3 is another $10k and out of the budget. Are there other EVs we should consider?
Nissan Leafs seem to be hard to find as do other entry-level EVs. I appreciate any thoughts on less-expensive EVs and EV ownership. I am by no means an enthusiastic early-adopter, so would it be smarter to buy an ICE vehicle and wait for an EV when the technology and charging infrastructure have matured? Thanks for your help.
Patrick
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Playing the old used EV market is a risky game.
Most of the older used EVs sell for less than what a it would cost to replace the battery. So, a failed battery may total the car. Not that different than a ICE car they generally go to the scrap yard when it cost more to fit it than it is worth. Just like ICEs EV sellers are motivated to make the condition of the battery seem as good as possible. People have been know to combine the best cells from a few bad batteries into one that seems good but the battery may not be safe and is not likely to last very long. Also software manipulation seems possible.
EV owners that want to maximize batteries capacity and life span recharge at 30% and stop charging at 80%. People that plan on selling don’t care and degrade the battery.
You may want to look at this link they use large data sets to grade the battery of a car you are considering.
https://www.recurrentauto.com/?rsrc=tfl
Walta
Thanks Walta. The website you linked has good info.
The battery management system (BMS) will typically take care of the charging cycle for you, leaving reserve capacity on both ends. You aren't really accomplishing much by starting a charge when you see 30% and stopping at 80% -- the BMS is already doing something similar for you.
Bill
I'd probably go with a 2015 PriusV--pretty much bulletproof, huge inside, no need to worry about charging.
There's one nearby with 100k at about the same price. I'll check it out when we look at a Bolt.
Watch out for mice
That is true. They also don't like to sit without being driven for more than 2-3 days, which is one reason I had to get rid of my Prius. But if they're driven regularly, they are very well engineered cars.
Ya I love Toyota, have a 4Runner with 400k+ on it. They are notoriously terrible with rodents though, it’s almost like they design them to be a nice place to live for them. I can’t think of another car company that has as many totaled by mice stories as them.
One nice thing about the Bolts is that many of them received warranty battery replacements which reset the warranty life on the battery. So for example you can find used 2017 model year Bolts which have a battery that is new as of 2022 and has a 10 year warranty on it. This can differ vehicle-to-vehicle so the best thing to do is check the VIN on a site like recurrent (mentioned above). Plus the federal tax credit on used EVs can be a pretty good deal if your dealer makes sure to file the right paperwork.
That's one of the appealing parts of the Bolt Tim, I agree.
I took the leap into full EV transport for the family at the end of 2023. Bought a 2020 Nissan Leaf S Plus in November and a 2023 Chevy Bolt 2LT in December. I LOVE these cars. The Bolt is the most fun car I've ever owned. It's very smooth and zippy and surprisingly roomy. Both have amazing safety and comfort features (heated seat and steering wheel -- never going back!). My teenage boys drive the Leaf to school and sports.
I had a level 2 charger installed at home (just a 50 amp NEMA 14-50 outlet -- I use the portable EVSE cable that came with the Leaf) and I only ever charge there. I think I've used a fast charger once just to see what it was like. The home charger installation cost about $870 and I think I've already saved that in fueling cost.
I was nervous about range, especially since I bought the cars just before winter in New England. The Leaf's stated range is 216 miles on a full charge and the Bolt is about 260 and the cold decreases that by quite a bit. But after about a month of driving the EV, I've reset my thinking about driving (becoming more aware of distances I normally drive, what affects my mileage and remembering to charge fully before longer trips) and now it's just normal. I realized that I don't normally drive more than about 150, 180 miles on my longest daily trips and that has been plenty.
If you can charge at home, definitely go for the EV. And although I do like the Leaf a lot, I'd probably say go for the Bolt instead because of the charging port.
For more information, take a look at the reddit forums for the leaf and bolt (and general ev charging). They were extremely helpful in my decision.
Thanks for sharing your experience krys.
I have two 2019 Bolts. There was a recall - yes and they both got new batteries a couple years back.
You cannot beat the Bolt for value. Reliable, cheap and have quite a few niceties inside for a econobox.
The only issue is that that vintage does not have a heat pump but resistive heating so running heat in the cold seasons carries a 1/3 range hit penalty. Also on the highway they reaaaaaly don’t like going over 65 so there is that :)
Also servicing them is easy and cheap as every local Chevy dealer can do it.
If you live where you can charge them at night easily- you absolutely should get one.
Hope this helps.
Clarification- the Bolt REALLY likes going over 65, which makes it difficult to avoid the range hit! I have trouble keeping my foot off the accelerator.
Also, regarding the battery life and condition -- The discussion around this is similar to what I was hearing and reading back in 2007 when I was researching hybrids. For used Leafs, you can easily check the battery condition using a $15 OBD tool and free LeafSpy software (reddit explains how) and also (although a little more complicated) for the Bolt.
Patrick, we picked up a 2018 LEAF SL (40 kWh pack) about 3 years ago now. It's a great car, extremely reliable as a town runner. 0-60 in about 7 seconds. My wife refers to it as a "zippy" car. The farthest we drive it in one go is about 130km to camp. All charging at home (220V, 16 amps), or camp (110V, 12 amps). On highway, the "self driving" is quite good and makes for a very relaxing drive. It steers itself and uses adaptive cruise. Lots of safety nannies for young drivers as well. The cabin in the LEAF SL (highest trim) is quite nice. E-pedal (single pedal drive) is awesome. We drive it in -25C fairly often in winter and heat/etc. is pretty much instant. Upper level trims have a heat pump which keeps efficiency quite good until temps dip below -10 C. Expect a 30-40% range hit when temps drop below -20C. Operating costs are about $25/month added to our hydro bill, charging at overnight rates.
I do all of our mechanical work and have a well equipped shop and hoist ... have been wrenching on cars for over 40 years now. I've had the LEAF up on the hoist to do corrosion treatment and basic maintenance. There is very little to do, other than regular brake service to lube the pads and pins. I do this once a year. These cars have very expensive electronic brake controllers so a brake fluid flush every 2 years is something you should do. A 2018 and up LEAF with decent battery health (LeafSpy app and ODB2 dongle give you quick charge stats and battery health in about 10 seconds) is a great car, again for more temperate climates and shorter trips. LEAFs 2018 and up have 40 or 60kWh packs, have decent range, and due in part to simplicity are amongst the most reliable EVs out there. Most EVs with front drive have a whopping 8-10 moving parts to the axles so are mechanically very simple. Double that for AWD. The local Nissan dealer is fully qualified to service it, although it has been there only once for a software update. A Telsa requiring more serious service here has to be flat bedded about 70okm.
If you want to travel across country, your only and best choice right now is a Tesla. The entire industry in North America is moving to the Tesla NACS charge port, and neither the Bolt or LEAF have this port. That said, I would not road trip in either of these cars (and certainly not a LEAF) mostly due to the slow charge times and pack sizes. With a newer Tesla and their super charging station network, you can travel pretty much like an ICE car, but with a 10-15 minute pee/charge break every 2 hours. If you live in a hot climate, or need to fast charge a lot, don't buy a LEAF as it has no battery thermal management. That said, in Zone 7A, it's cool and we never fast charge. The battery health in our LEAF sits at around 90K km is 89%. For the LEAF's first 3 years it was used for driver training so had a few quick charges and pretty much daily use. I picked up the car with an extra set of alloy rims/TPMS and studded winter tires for less than half price in 2021...my eldest daughter took her driving training in the car :-) We still maintain a 2014 Highlander for cross country trips and more extreme snow storms that require AWD.
I'm not a fan of hybrids so much as mechanically they are more complex then either an ICE car, or EV, therefore fail the KISS rule for me. They also require all the maintenance of an ICE car, oil changes, etc. I have no desire to do that. That said, the Toyota hybrid drive train is very well engineered and quite mature. Because I do all of our mechanical work (including full paint jobs, bodywork, engine swaps etc.) once I saw how simple EVs are, I was in 100%. This is a excellent source if you want to get under the hood: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtr07mdKhsUwVJjL8Kw_q5A
Hope that helps.
Hi Dennis, We sound like kindred spirits with regard to hobbyist wrench-turning, although I steer clear of bodywork. Thanks for sharing your first-hand experience and the YouTube channel. recommendation.
So, funny thing...my daughter is still using our old 2003 CRV for school. I had to repair a broken rear upper trailing arm mount just two weeks ago...go figure.
Maybe you'd like a parts car for your yard? Mine has a great motor and drive train but the underside is pretty crusty.
I have a 20 Niro EV that is coming off lease, they should be in the 20k range with low miles. Been problem free. I also test drove the Hyundai equivalent and liked it but no trunk space
Hi Gus, I had to look up what a Niro was. Good-looking car. Thanks for your thoughts. You getting another EV Gus? Did you consider buying the car at the end of your lease?
Yes, probably will buy it.
Hi Patrick: If the school has a charging station available, a 2019 or 2020 Hyundai Ioniq Plug In (29 miles electric range 52 mpg on gasoline) could provide a mostly EV type school commute. Cars.com lists several for sale in the $13s and $14s and $15K range. Otherwise a 2020 Hyundai Ioniq Electric is rated at 170 miles EV range, and the 2018 and 2019 models are rated at 124miles EV range. (Your mileage may vary). Cars.com lists several in the $11Ks and $12Ks range. Federal law mandates a plug in battery warranty for 8 years or 100K miles; the California rules states raise this to 10 years or 150K miles.
I wold avoid a used Leaf. Used ones are cheap for a reason. They use passive air cooling for the battery which dooms them to an early grave. Also the CHAdeMO charge port has been abandoned so public chargers are scarce. Go for a Bolt or a hybrid.
Edit to add: I just bought my first EV, so I am getting used to the dynamics of ownership. The most obvious shortcoming is public charging infrastructure. If your use case is almost always charging at home overnight, then this is a nonissue. But if you need to use a public charger regularly, that complicates things. You will need DCFC (DC Fast Charging) to add power fast enough to get back on the road in an acceptable amount of time. Using a public DCFC like Electrify America or Tesla costs about the same as gasoline per mile, so you lose any cost advantage. Also just finding a working charger outside of Tesla can be a challenge. Charging is definitely in the early adopter phase of ownership in anything outside of a Tesla. (I drive a Ford which is able to use some of the Tesla chargers).
Charging infrastructure is healthy along major corridors, but here in Maine they dry up north of Bangor. There are large swaths of New England without any DCFC.
A LEAF should not be ruled out, providing there is some due diligence on the pack. The LeafSpy app and an ODB2 dongle is cheap and will tell you everything you need to know abou the pack. 2018 LEAFs and up, providing they are not in the desert and stored outside at 120F (which would toast any EV battery) can be great values, if you know what to look for :-) @Tim_W, road tripping in a Bolt or LEAF, is not practical at 50kW charge rates via CCS or Chademo. Anyone who needs to travel long distances should be looking at a Tesla, or be prepared for some frustration. If your mode of travel requires fast charging, then the Bolt, Leaf etc. are not good choices. That said, for urban running with night charging at home, both are great choices. With NACs as a defacto standard going forward, pretty much every EV by later in 2024 will have a NACs (Tesla) port standard.
I was part of an EV show here last year and managed to get a few LeafSpy readings off daily used, higher mileage, 2018 LEAFs. Battery packs on both were still in the 85 to 88% health range, as they approached 160K kms. Anything older than 2018 uses different chemistry, and yes, some are pretty used up. We are in zone 7A, so again, cooler climate correlates to longer life on these packs. They are also easy to swap out or rebuild if needed.
Patrick, your post mentions an 80 mile round trip. If this is on the highway at 70-80mph in hot temps, look at the Bolt vs the LEAF, particularly in summer temps. Also, if you're looking at a LEAF, I'd look for the Plus with the 60 kWh pack, particularly if some commuting will be done in sub freezing temps.
My sincere thanks to all of you for your input on the Bolt and other used EVs. Well, here it is. $12750 out the door with 21k miles. The final price includes a point-of-sale rebate of $4000 from the Inflation Reduction Act for used EVs. Not all cars qualify and there are income limits of $75k for single-earners and $150k for two-income households.
The charger (Grizzl-E), NEMA 14-50 outlet, NM cable, 50-amp GFCI breaker were another $600 with an especially short run of cable to the outside. My son loves the car.
I watched the Bolt Power Train intro video Dennis linked above which is presented by an EV tech school educator. I'm not sure if after watching it, I feel more or less-confident in my ability to work on the car. Although I haven't yet tired at looking at all the cool stuff under the hood. Maybe subsequent videos will boost my confidence. Thanks again everyone. This really is a great community because of your participation. Happy to answer any questions about the car or about the buying experience.
Patrick
Congrats...I'm sure you'll be loving it. That price is about half what you'd pay here in CAD. That car has a new 66kWh battery as well...awesome deal. At just over 6 seconds 0-60, I'd be pretty happy as a young student with that car too :-)
Working on these cars with regard to suspension, brakes etc. is pretty much the same as an ICE car. You just need to very much know what you're doing if you plan on working on the high voltage bits...and they are easy enough to identify by the bright orange cladding on the wires. The Bolt drivetrain is very robust. Just service the brakes once yearly and you're gold. Brake fluid flush as well every two years. There is no transmission, just a gear case. That is a lifetime fill, but I've gone ahead and changed this out on the LEAF. 12 volt system for lights, wipers etc. is all ICE stuff.
The Grizzl-E is awesome. No stupid wifi, just a bulletproof charger that will survive an ice age. Good choice.
Good to hear Tim. Thank you