Can I trust “American uPVC” Windows?
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I read people talking about how vinyl windows are bad and you shouldn’t put them in a nice home, but I also read about how “European uPVC” windows are great. Well, what am I to think about American window manufacturers making windows using “uPVC”? An example would be Soft-Lite, which I see their Elements and Imperial lines recommended on various sites (although a lot of those recommendations are coming from window salesmen). Soft-Lite isn’t in your face about being uPVC, but they use it apparently and have good reinforcement on their windows, and offer U values <.2 with triple pane options and low air leakage ratings. Plus the warranty sounds good. Would Soft-Lite be a reasonable choice in a “Pretty Good House”? The biggest question to me is whether the U rating holds up over many years in the midwest climate.
Thank you in advance for your input.
Imperial Elite Windows | SoftLite Windows & Doors (soft-lite.com)
Another example would be Sunrise: Sunrise Windows & Doors | Premium Vinyl Replacement Windows & More
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Replies
Building,
The terms "uPVC window," "PVC window," and "vinyl window" are all interchangeable. When manufacturers brag that their windows are made of "uPVC," they are muddying the waters rather than clarifying the issue. All vinyl window manufacturers use similar vinyl. It's all the same stuff.
I agree with Martin. It's all basically the same stuff and vinyl is vinyl, with all its faults (differential temperature movement compared to glass, extremely problematic manufacturing issues with respect to the environment and human health, etc.)
The "u" in uPVC stands for unplasticized. With the phase out of plasticizers such as phthalates (which are endocrine disruptors) the vinyl industry in Europe has shifted to uPVC and has succeeded in marketing it in a big way. I don't buy it. Without the (ghastly) plasticizers uPVC is more brittle and it's still vinyl.
Look for warranty, service, reviews and company history. I recently did a comparison on here about windows. I found that the high efficiency European type T&T were about 30% higher, even when made in the USA. Check out Alpen in CO.
I should also say the Alpen's are fiberglass, not u-PVC.
In doing research for the Pretty Good House book, I found that while there is no significant difference in uPVC vs PVC vs vinyl when it comes to plasticizers, there are different grades, quality levels and performance characteristics between manufacturers, such as different types of UV protection. Unfortunately manufacturers don't make access to their chemical formulas easy!
The difference between north American and European windows is not the material but the construction and hardware.
Most local vinyl windows are made from un-reinforced plastic. They rely mostly on the glass to keep the window flat and square and since vinyl can flow when loaded, the windows will slowly deform over time. This is typically why lot of older windows are hard to operate.
European plastic windows have a steel reinforced core under the plastic thus the PVC is mostly decorative. This steel core is much stiffer than the plastic over it so thermal expansion is not an issue. This is also why Euro style windows tend to have much wider frames. To me this is a small cost, my decade uPVC tilt and turns operate and seal just as well as the day it was installed.
A cheap uPVC can have lower TiO2 content (UV stabilizer and most expensive additive in the formulation) and thus a lower resistance to UV.
Interestingly, the PVC windows have significantly less embodied carbon footprint than anything clad with metal. They also have less embodied carbon than fiberglass. According to Innotech, the PVC used in their products can be reused indefinitely. In the past I was against any sort of PVC window but my thinking is evolving on this, especially with the European style frames as they are much more stable and rigid. The calculus is never easy...
"PVC windows have significantly less embodied carbon footprint"
Can you point me towards a source or reference for that? I just looked online to see what I could find in the way of well conducted comparison studies and wasn't able to get very far. I'd like to know more.
The info is off of the BEAM carbon calculator:
https://www.buildersforclimateaction.org/beam-estimator.html
>"the PVC used in their products can be reused indefinitely"
I'm not entirely sure about that. Typical plastic recylcing melts and reforms the plastic. The polymer chains break down (shorten) a bit when that's done, according to what I've read, and that makes recycled resins often not quite as useful as virgin materials. I don't really think that's a "bad thing", but it probably means their claim is a bit optimistic.
Metals CAN be recycled and reused indefinetely. Most steel is already made from recycled materials, and was probably the first material to be recycled on a massive scale beginning over a century ago.
Bill
I'm just paraphrasing what Innotech quoted me. It's fair to be skeptical of the comment, but it does bear some consideration. Almost 1/3 of the carbon footprint in the last home we built was due to the aluminum windows and metal roof. Metal can be recycled indefinitely, but again-- the carbon impact is due some consideration when thinking on the environmental impacts of this decision.
The key word is "CAN" be recycled. Vinyl is rarely actually recycled, but it could be. Shady marketing language.
Metals, including steel and aluminum, ARE recycled.
Steel recycling is usually done in an electric arc furnace as I understand it. Aluminum is primarily processed electrically for virgin material, maybe recycling too (although I know one local aluminum reprocessor here has a natural gas fired furnace). Aluminum production from the ore often takes place in plants built near hydroelectric installations, due to the *massive* amount of electricity used by the aluminum purification process. I know there is an aluminum processor in New Zealand that is near a hydroelectric dam that was built primarily for the aluminum plant, and there is an aluminum plant in the PNW area of the US with similar hydroelectric power supplies. Be careful about claims as to what is made with what energy source -- marketing people are famous for sneaking lingo here.
And, as Michael pointed out, most metals really are recycled on a large scale. There is an entire scrap metal industry built around this, and since people pulling out old metal stuff can SELL that stuff, there is a big incentive to try to salvage all the metals for recycling. Recycling metal typically uses less energy compared to processing new material from the raw ore too, so you have something of a win-win here.
As I often point out here, when you consider the entire process, which you really should if your goal is to be "green", things aren't always what they first appear, and you should be especially suspicious of things promoted by marketing materials. "Greenwashing" is unfortunately a real thing as of late.
Bill
If your main question is whether the performance can hold up over time, I would look to European component profile and hardware manufacturers as they generally are designed for longer durability as that market does - generally - demand higher quality. There are some North American manufacturers that use components from Europe (but IGs from North America) and I think this is the best option. You have "local" testing, engineering, manufacturing and support but the components come from Germany (in most cases). Examples include Alpen, Luxview, Euroline and Innotech. I'm sure there are others.