Airtight envelope with in-ceiling speakers
airfix
| Posted in Green Building Techniques on
Climate 6A. Planning on a pretty good house. R-60 roof, R-30+ walls and less than 1.5ACH50. We’re planning an un-vented cathedral roof with low slope (2.5/12).
I have already specified no canned lighting in my ceiling but I just got to thinking about having in-ceiling speakers. I assume they are as bad or worse for air sealing and stack effect into my rafter bays?
Is there such a thing as a well sealed in-ceiling speaker or should I be looking at other options? Any recommendations?
Steve
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Replies
Steve,
Are you doing whole house or home theater sound?
Well the plan is to do a whole house with distributed audio to 6 zones and distributed video (cat6) to 3 zones. I'm certainly going to run the cables for everything at build. Whether I put the whole house in all at the time of build or only do a couple of zones and then expand later has yet to be determined.
Steve
I used to do full structured cabling in houses and unless you need a tech heavy home office its become completely irrelevant other than tv locations.
In ceiling speakers are hard to air seal, I would suggest in wall. Better yet use Sonos, while not as clean as a wall/ceiling speaker when its all said and done you can place them inconspicuously and no one really cares anyways. Sound is good and the app is great, plus is a wifi versus bluetooth system.
I used to have high end JBL in ceiling and in wall speakers and wouldnt go back over sonos.
You can use a sealed speaker like Monitor Audio's Controlled Performance (CP) line that has an airtight enclosure or try an airsealing box like Backboxx. Standard fireproof backboxes are not usually good for airsealing as they require a perfect stud space for proper fit and have numerous punch outs for wire hangers, etc.
The Backboxx (https://www.backboxx.com/) can be used with just about any speaker but it's difficult to detail the air barrier at drywall. You staple the box in place, then pull cable and tape the box at rough in, then apply acoustic caulk right before drywall. It's just not a process that works well unless you are on site frequently. I found it was much easier to gasket or caulk the speaker itself at installation as it usually results in a better seal at the drywall.
I've had a couple of inspectors who require the backboxx style box to be installed to pass rough-in so you might need to use both.
I know you mentioned that the intended use was for the cathedral ceiling space, but airtight speakers are also the way to go for in-wall, etc. By blocking the airpaths, they greatly reduces the amount of sound that leaks into the adjacent spaces. Also, because the speakers are built fully enclosed, the sound doesn't change based on the free air in the installation cavity. The only downsides are they are a little taller than a regular speaker and lose some bass due to the smaller air volume.
Steve,
Jay seems to be capturing the challenge of air sealing a speaker installed in a vented attic (which sounds like the situation you are trying to address). I have a couple of neighbors who have installed Sonos and love it.
J Carlson & Steve Knapp,
I'm just not sold on the idea of Sono's. Everyone I know that has Sono's swears by them but I'm not convinced. I still think wired speakers is the way to go. Yes there is the cost of running the wire but I think the cost of running the wire and an average speaker is less than the cost of running power lines and the price of sonos. BTW Steve Knapp, we're doing an unvented ceiling.
Jason I think you are right that I need to go with backboxes but the sealing of the wires and the speaker to the box as well as sealing the box to the dry wall as you've experienced is not easy. However there are not many other options. I could have my carpenter build custom boxes for each speaker but I don't think that buys me anything over the Monitor Audio solution or your linked Backbox. As it happens I was looking at Monitor Audio (and Polk) for my in ceiling speakers anyway. Point taken on the walls too.
Thanks for the feedback.
Steve
I have no affiliation with Sonos, but like you said, once soneone gets one they're sold. It happened to me and Ive got an expensive hardwired home theatre with a network reciever and it only comes on for movies now. I started buying them in 2014.
Since the pricing is controlled like Bose, if you buy from their website they give you 45 days to try it out and send it back if you dont like it, I would advise you to take them up on it.
You would be amazed at the quality of sound they get out of the Play1, google measured reviews. You can avoid network recievers, source switching, volume controls, ir sensors, amplifiers, distribution modules and lots of time consuming wiring plus a lot of structured panel space if that is your wire endpoint. It is WAY cheaper and sounds as good as a $150 in wall.
The Sonos and similar systems sound like a great alternative to wired systems.
However, for those concerned about privacy, doesn't the Sonos run through their app and track your musical preferences and link to your other data and do further tracking? Is there any way to run the Sonos without being tracked?
The streaming services you are most likely to use with Sonos are going to track far more info than Sonos itself. You can limit some of the feedback provided, but there is no good way to run Sonos in a non-internet connected state. It needs to be able to access the internet for metadata and updates at a minimum.
Here's the Sonos FAQ on Privacy if you interested:
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy#faq
Steve McKay,
As long as my hearing lasts, I will never use small speakers (wired or wireless) for music playback. But I think that the listening objective is different with wholehouse audio. It is about having a convenient way to create ambient sound in multiple rooms (or even outdoors). For that type of setup, a wifi music system is hard to beat.
But C.L. also raises an important issue. If a wifi speaker systems requires an internet connection, it is likely capturing information about your usage. If the system includes an intelligent voice assistant feature, it is probably listening in on you 24/7, which is kind of creepy to me.
Focal SIB and Bird series look architecturally interesting and would only require the speaker wire penetration which could be sealed easy enough. You could aim either, to enhance the functionality. Cambridge and SVS make some as well.
Sealed in-walls would work (Triad or Golden Ear?) but those can get really spendy for good ones.
If you're inclined to the Apple ecosystem, the HomePod is audiophile quality. I know, I've been throwing money at audio for 40+ years, starting with Henry Kloss' work, way back in the day. HomePod is tiny, approaches subwoofer response at the bottom end, and requires only a mains outlet. I have gotten rid of all my audiophile gear, because of HomePod. Apple is using beam-forming, ala Bang & Olufsen, and on and on, you'd need to Google. It's a whole other thing. One HomePod in a 26' x 28' room, 10' ceilings ... way more than enough volume.
Steve,
You appear to be an audiophile who is really interested in the quality of the sound you will end up with. Because of that I wonder if it makes sense to install something fairly permanently into the walls or ceiling. How long do you see using these before something else superseded them and you want to change systems? Perhaps Sean's suggestion bears looking at. Although perhaps not as visually appealing, it may make more sense.
I think the term "audiophile" is being used loosely, Sonos, HomePod, the like are not audiophile speakers, neither would inwall or ceiling speakers.
An audiophile would have a dedicated listening room acoustically setup for their gear to try and complete the goal of an audiophile, which is to recreate live sound, cant do that with some cones over your dinner table. Talking beaucoup bucks, stereophile might be the correct term and if Sonos costs too much for the OP that isnt happening either...just sayin.
I was going to ask this in my own thread, but this is a good place to ask my question. I will have a similar roof to the OP, low slope plus heavily insulated/unvented. Our roof will use trusses, and have a flat ceiling inside. Is air sealing between drywall and the roof a big problem? Why can't that space between drywall and the insulated roof have air movement? This applies to the OP's roof/ceiling as well.
Kevin,
Q. "For a low slope roof, heavily insulated, unvented. Our roof will use trusses, and have a flat ceiling inside. Is air sealing between drywall and the roof a big problem? Why can't that space between drywall and the insulated roof have air movement?"
A. A thorough answer would require a better description of your insulation plan. But if your insulation plan is either: (a) to install an adequately thick layer of rigid foam above the roof sheathing, or (b) to install an adequately thick layer of closed-cell spray foam insulation on the underside of the roof sheathing, then here is my answer:
In situation (a), the membrane roofing is your air barrier. If air circulates between the drywall and the roof sheathing, no harm occurs.
In situation (b), the closed-cell spray foam is your air barrier. If air circulates between the drywall and the interior surface of the cured spray foam, no harm occurs.
If you intend to install fluffy insulation on the interior side of this assembly, then it makes sense to install an additional interior air barrier on the interior side of the fluffy insulation. You wouldn't want air movement through the fluffy insulation.
Thank you Martin. I am situation (b) so I won't worry about air sealing. I wonder what OP Steve McKay's insulation plan is for his R-60 unvented cathedral ceiling???
Kevin,
I have a couple of options and I'll decide which way I go based on our budget which we are getting quotes for now. The ideal way for me to go would be to do 5.5" ccSPF in a 14" TJI rafter bay with 8.5" of fluffy installed directly below the SPF for a total of R-68. I'm getting close to the 51% ratio of vapor impermeable to vapor permeable with that strategy but the ccSPF is very, very expensive. However it is my preferred method because it makes sealing to the sheathing much easier and less prone to issues.
For exterior foam on the outside of the roof sheathing I'd need something like 6" of foam to make my roof work, I don't think that's practical as all the roofers I;ve talked to are scared of it. The other option suggested to me by my builder and insulation guy is to fill the whole 14" TJI cavity with netted and blown BIBS insulation. That will give me around R-59 but then the vapor control layer is a smart layer of membrane (I'm not sure of the brand but this has prompted me to find out). The difficulty is making sure the membrane is installed correctly and working out a detail on how to seal it to my sheathing. My builder and insulator swear by this method and they have built several houses in my area with this method. However as far as I know they've not pulled apart any to look for moisture damage. I also know people on this forum have advised against this method.
The difference in price is over $13,000 between the two methods.
Malcolm,
I'm not an audiophile except by only the most generous definition of the term but I do like to spend time in the evenings sitting and listening to albums from beginning to end and enjoying the music. Speakers are something that doesn't really change over time. Okay the wireless or wired but the speaker technology itself is pretty stable. If I set up my audio system right it should be future compatible with any new technologies. I'm just choosing to run wires for my speakers instead of wireless.
Whether I go wired or wireless still doesn't affect the need to do in ceiling speakers. My wife will not tolerate speakers hanging down in the rooms. I don't really think of it as an issue but that's a battle I'm choosing not to fight. I still have to determine the best strategy for sealing them. I'm looking into the methods described in this thread.
Steve,
I guess the term has changed a bit over time. I considered my friend Bruno an audiophile back in the '70s because he had speakers big enough that if you had hollowed one out you could have hid inside.
Good luck with your project.
Steve---if you use the closed cell foam, you don't have to worry about sealing the speakers.