3M All Weather Flashing Tape 8067
user-757117
| Posted in Green Products and Materials on
The literature from 3M says “High tack adhesive sticks and stays stuck to most common building materials”.
There are also test results for adhesion to poly, housewrap, OSB and anodized aluminum…
Anybody know how well this tape adheres to concrete?
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Replies
Not a clue, but where were you able to find the 8067 in ontario?
John, I found this website that apparently ships from a warehouse in Markham:
http://www.nhsmediastore.com/vhbtapes.aspx
I'm probably going to order from the states...
A big thanks to Blake Bilyeu of Bilyeu Homes who - after I probably interrupted his supper with my phone call - walked out to his shop and stuck a piece of 8067 to the concrete floor to see how well it would stick.
While not conclusive in terms of long-term results, his ad-hoc testing revealed that the tape stuck...
Thanks again Blake!
Edit to say: Warning, large file linked above - but well worth viewing.
Lucas,
the idea of expecting tape to "last" for 50 years (and more) when maintained in a narrow temperature range is worrisome enough.
What are you "connecting" the concrete to with the tape?
What kind of temperature extremes will the tape "see"?
Have you thought about using gaskets for the concrete to wood connections?
John,
I had been flirting with the idea of using tape at the wood to concrete transitions but I agree that it is too much to worry about - even without exposure to extremes.
I noticed that Siga recommends their "Wigluv" + "Dockskin" for such transitions.
3M apparently makes a "primer" for use with the 8067 tape...
But I think gaskets are the way to go where wood meets concrete.
It would be nice though if the tape I choose were able to stick to an adjacent piece of concrete...
John, is there a particular tape you like or have thought about specifying?
I think my air-sealing strategy is nearly complete.
I'll post some drawings as soon as I get some time.
i've used miles of the 8067.....love it (especially in the winter).It sticks very well to pretty much anything. Not sure about the concrete to wood transition, but I suspect that as long as it is covered with siding,watertable,etc it probably should be OK.
We've used lots of Grace "Bithuthane" over the years on concrete. It works very well. Be aware that you absolutely must use the primer with the Bithuthane, or it WILL NOT stick to the concrete,period. I was not aware of a primer for the 8067.I'll talk to the rep at JLC Live this weekend
Hi All,
For what ever it's worth, the Wigluv + Dockskin to concrete is a really basic application and trustworthy. One of you should try it and blog on what you think. It's new and worth evaluating. If you care to look at: http://www.smallplanetworkshop.com/what-people-say/ then you'll see that Marc Rosenbaum of South Mountain (if the name means anything to you) has already done an interior Rissan + Dockskin to Concrete. The Wigluv application is the same but using the exterior tape with vapor diffusion and UV resistance on an exterior application. The temp swings are perfectly ok for this.
John: I'll need to rewrite the website where it quotes 50 years in application. It's certainly attainable and they have seen plenty of 20+ applications getting new work which allows inspections of old work and it's doing fine. It rapid ages testes well, but as we both know other factors come into play over the long haul and there are going to be cases where movement, saturation and damage preclude anything from working.
The general expectation of applying tapes to wall constructions is that the "field" should stay in great shape as long as no building damage develops. The tape wont "dry out" and fall off by itself. You can see that reasonably well by 20 years. If it was going to fail, you'd see the beginnings by then. The area's out of the "field" (wall panel, base joints etc) such as windows, doors and other penetrations are sensitive points to begin with. Being more susceptible to liquid water and building movement, they are fortunately area's that receive some attention a few times in the buildings life: New windows or doors = new air-sealing.
And yes Blake used the 8067 for his first passive house. Thats the point of importing the SIGA line: The product range available in the US (3m or whatever...) doesn't cover the application range needed. He had finished the project prior to SIGA being available. I saw him last Friday at the Passive House Northwest Conference in Olympia WA (I'm one of the organizers) and he remains supportive of adding the SIGA products to the mix. Further to his Salem House: The 8067 was applied to the external plywood sheeting. Had he been able to use the Wigluv 60 in place of the 3m 8067, ( he could not at the time as there was none in the US to use yet...) it would have allowed water in the taped joints to dry through the tape as the assembly dried out. That's a new capability and it's probably hard to appreciate the "upgrade" where it did not exist before until you give it some thought for awhile. It's akin to applying Tyvek to a wet wall. You know it's going to be ok because the liquid water can vaporize and dry through the Tyvek and not remain trapped.
Albert,
"It rapid ages testes well" !!!
But want if I don't want my testes to be rapidly aged? I like my testes just the way they are.
Martin,
You are usually so serious.
Nice when you show your humorous side.
Hi Albert,
I admit that I have never specified tape.
I am very interested in tape & gaskets because I think that airtightness at the sheathing really, really makes sense.
Obviously you "like" SIGA.
Marc Rosenbaum has also endorsed Huber products.
What are your thoughts about ZIP system? Good & Bad
What do you think about EPDM gaskets?
It looks like Marc Rosenbaum and John Abrams use gaskets to connect the ZIP system to the Mud-Sill.
Dan Kolbert in a JLC article mentioned using gaskets from Conservation Technology for bottom plate to concrete connections.
Oherwise I have not seen much information about the use of gaskets.
I could be wrong... but I am thinking that gaskets would be the most "bullet proof" method to connect wood to wood and wood to concrete.
Martin,
Not that I'd know, but I'm sure that your fine "as you are". Yes... please resist the rapid aging regardless of what body parts are involved!
Wow. When I make a typo, I make a good one... I couldn't have picked a more public place!
:)
John,
Yes, I like SIGA. I like SIGA to the extent that I worked with them to bring a warehouse full of inventory (which is for sale!) over to the US so that we have more options to work with. I'm associated with a region that has strong Passivhaus (spelling in honor of mh) growth and future. For PH, obviously hitting 0.6ach50 is important, but I'm with you on the overall importance of air-sealing for any heated/cooled project. It's just plain important that we move the industry, green or tract home, ahead in terms of energy performance. As we all know air-sealing is a key target in performance and... an easy target at that!
At the same time that we talk, suggest, enable and encourage air-sealing, we need to have a parallel discussion about moisture management for obvious reasons. Especially on large "stages" as the GBA Q&A.
So...With my "environmental stumping" done for the moment, back to our discussion.
1, I have a bias and it's wall systems that have an increasing diffusion gradient to the exterior. I'm in climate 4C and that's... just how I roll... :) That means while I "get" how Huber ZIP keeps the "dreaded water" out (we've got buckets of it everyday in Seattle!), I'd probably go another direction. The Huber Tape is good tape and I think it's smart to match the tape to what your applying it to in case there is a warranty issue down the road (huber tape to huber panel). A company I respect very much is Tedd Benson's Bensonwood (I'm a Timber Framer's Guild member and he was a guild founder). His company has set up shop to prefab passivhaus wall panels or whole homes with a wall system based on Huber Zip at the exterior of a dense packed wall. So... while I'd still go another direction, I'm certainly not one to argue with his thinking. A high quality builder like that will get the details right and the project will have a long healthy life.
2, Gaskets. While I'm deep into SIGA and think it's exactly what we need here in the US, I'm also a realist who resists one answer scenarios. Situations vary and your solutions to them need to vary also. I'm working with a Passivhaus Builder here who is on their third PH project. They are a great builder at: http://artisansgroup.com/. Each project has helped them solve issues and develop "production systems". They have developed a wall system that while site or prefab built, once set, you can't get at the base joint at the interior air-sealing layer to apply a sealing tape. A gasket is perfect for this application. Other areas get tape because it's quick, you can see it's condition after application, and the application is repairable if it's still accessible at blower door time.
3, The esteemed Mr Rosenbaum is an honorable person. There is no reason to say that Huber Zip doesn't work. That's not to say it's the only thing that works. Huber Zip is about many things, not just air-sealing. SIGA is only about air-sealing while managing moisture. That said, Mr. Rosenbaum is just in the middle of an addition to his house. It's a pretty cool project with a SIP roof that's been set a week or so ago. Because the roof is covering an octagon shaped addition, the SIPS have an astounding amount of fussy joints in compound angles. He is testing many air-sealing products for this project. At the SIP Joints of the roof panels, his crew is applying SIGA Rissan over those fussy compound joints on the interior side. I have not heard how it was received, but I expect the crew liked Rissan and it's dispenser. It's the right product for that application because it sticks to OSB like you would never believe and goes on smoothly. We'll hear at some point... be it good or bad.
4, Gaskets vs. SIGA at an exterior base joint. My opinion is: Gaskets are good. SIGA Wigluv 100 + Dockskin is good. There is no wrong answer to a properly applied application. There are layer and staging issues that could make one easier than the other. There is the potential that the EPDM, under pressure, will eventually "conform" to it's surroundings. There is the potential that the SIGA bond could fail (gasp! on my part). Both are unlikely. Both will probably give generations of good quality air-sealing. It seems to me that using the same material for sealing this application that are being used to seal the other applications ( SIGA Wigluv on OSB/Ply sheeting, doors, WRB's, EPS, XPS foam boards, occasional service penetrations and "what have you's"...) with the addition of primer just makes the job run smoother. That's why having a good quality versatile tape onsite begins to take over any air-sealing obstacle.
The Europeans use tapes as a default because in applications where the work is accessible, laying tape on a base joint (with primer on the concrete) is simple and quick. SIGA is not the only tape on the market in Europe, there are over 14. Air-sealing is "just what they do". It's not "special" and young in terms of understanding and practice like it is here. A tape is the method of choice. I chose SIGA because after a couple of trips over, it became clear to me that they are the market leader (judging by product range, quality and market share.).
If your the designer, then I realize you need to spec something. A high quality air barrier (below 2ach50) in my opinion is planned and is not an after thought. Both tapes and gaskets will give good results. The other side of the transaction is the builder. As they have more tools (like SIGA), they'll have more standard practices and more air-sealing will happen because good tools are already onsite.
The point is to expand the air-sealing "toolbox" and elevate air-sealing opportunities and quality.
Thanks for the opportunity to "go off" on the subject. Hopefully I've not made any more idiotic typos! If so, consider this the "comedy corner" of GBA.
Albert, thanks for "going off" on the subject.
I have been spending a lot of time learning about tape lately and appreciate your perspective.
I have come to think of the right tape in combination with appropriately located sheathing as being the "simplest" means of achieving "extreme tightness"... though I am also wary of "one-size fits all" solutions...
I think the Siga line of tapes are more "evolved" than anything else that I am aware of that is manufactured in North America in that we have so far managed to make tapes that stick well (though in most cases they are not specifically designed for air-sealing work) but we haven't really begun to think about how well our tapes perform from a permeability point of view.
With this in mind I have been wondering if (at this point in time) the extra cost of the Siga tapes is worth it - considering that most substrates being used in N.A. are in many ways less "evolved" than the substrates the tapes were designed to be used on...
For example:
Is Wigluv to OSB what high-performance tires are to my '91 Honda Civic?
Lucas,
I like the "at this point in time". I think the industry can grow into these new properties. I'll use the electronic ignition vs. the old standby by distributor/points progression in cars as an analogy. I'm old enough to remember when the electronic ignition modules were futuristic things found only in popular science. In those days distributors worked just fine and I wondered why anyone would even consider the EI Modules. They were just little circuits in these black boxes that were impossible to repair if they break and expensive to replace if they failed.
Today it's only us "energy nerds" that are prepared to discuss new air-sealing methods such as tapes with perm ratings and other "new features" that we hadn't even considered pertinent. It certainly is a lot to take in, but I tell you, it's really been fun and interesting to me to learn new idea's. Especially good idea's.
So to cost justification... I have no idea how this will play out and perhaps you can help by quoting some costs for a balanced view.. Lets look at 2 scenarios: simple interior air-sealing and simple exterior air-sealing.
Interior: Meaning anywhere behind a good WRB and at least to the interior side of some kind of insulation at R7 or greater. SIGA Rissan 60. Vapor closed, will stick to anything (including concrete with dockskin primer) that's not oily (generally speaking). Seals OSB or any wood panel, any membrane, it will stretch like shrink wrap in length and width so it'll wrap around any dia of wire or pipe penetration... the list does go on... Has no UV protection, can apply at 14 degrees F and stays stuck to 212 degree F . Priced at $27 per 82' roll or $ 0.33/ft at 2 3/8" wide. 4" and 6" widths also available.
I don't know how much 3m 8067 runs per roll or foot. Huber zip was a little more last I checked, but it depends on how well I priced it. Others may buy it better than I.
Exterior: Admittedly a better comparison to 3m and Huber. SIGA Wigluv 60. Used in any exterior application from wood, to foam boards, WRB's, Windows, Doors any dia penetrations since it also will stretch like shrink wrap. This allows you to get it around any odd shape. It's UV resistant and can be left exposed for 12 months, has no VOC's, can be applied down to 14 degrees ect. US perm rating of 1.2. A 4" and 6" width also available, as well as black for ventilated facades (horizontal strips that are spaced by 1/2" + with a visible black background behind.) 2 3/8" x 131' roll priced at $48 or $0.365/foot.
If you take a look at competitive pricing, post it (or not if you think it's improper). I'm not the one to say, but last I looked, SIGA was "in there". I'm sure that my friends at SIGA would like to know where they are in the market.
It's easy to get, we'll ship it anywhere.
Respectfully... When considering "value", also take into consideration that these are only two of a whole "family" of air-sealing products that are all compatible, and have no VOC's. The fact that there is a lot more "depth" in the line gives you someone to call when you have moved to the trickier air-sealing applications like pre-folded tape for air-sealing the interior line of windows & doors, or exterior membranes to concrete/masonry using a concealed solid/flexible adhesive.
Oddly fun stuff... :)
Lucas,
I could have saved myself a lot of typing if I just said that on your 91 Honda Civic... Yes... Any tire will do. Just be sure you've got a tire with REALLY GOOD TREAD. It can save both you and the car someday.
Best,
albert.