30A Induction Range? Lockout cooktop when oven in use?
severaltypesofnerd
| Posted in General Questions on
Does anyone make a 30A or less induction range with oven?
Typical specs are:
Front Left Output: 2,500 Watts
Back Left Output: 2,500 Watts
Front Right Output: 1,800 Watts
Back Right Output: 3,200 Watts
Volts: 220V
Amps: 50A
I have found Model RCIND-24 & RCIND-30 at Amperage: 40 amps. Is there anything lower? Or a model that locks out the oven or cooktop from being used at the same time?
Update: This is for a situation where increasing power to the kitchen is prohibitively complex.
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What are you trying to achieve here? It would be easier to run a second circuit. Note that the cooktop will only draw max power when ALL burners are running at the same time. If, for example, you’re only using one pot, you’ll only draw the power required for that one burner to operate.
You could setup a lockout with some current sensing relays and possibly a little relay logic, but as I said earlier, it would be simpler to just install a second power circuit for the other appliance.
Bill
@Bill Wichners
Speak for yourself about extra circuits. In this case adding an additional circuit is not possible.
The question is what's the smallest amp hour rated available induction range, not "how can I trench new cable".
If you explain yourself you will get better advice, and being rude in response is not ever going to get you useful answers. If you knew all the answers already, you would not be here.
Bill question is the first thing in most people's mind so they can give an accurate answer
This is not an appliance message board
The trend in rude responses from people asking advice is disconcerting. Hopefully this one smartens up and doesn't get booted like the last one.
I agree. Many of us here are professionals in the field, offering our expertise on this site for free. It's disheartening when posters reply in such disrespectful manner sometimes. It's common for us to need, and to ask for, additional information to be able to provide good advice. I've seen issues before with electrical work where the poster's question is based on a concern that turns out not to be the big problem the poster thought it was. Perhaps here, with this poster, the concern is needing a service upgrade, but maybe that doesn't actually apply. We can't be helpful if we don't know the entire situation involved.
Bill
Deleted
I apologize for the curt and snarky response. I've clarified the original post.
Not quite on the market yet but this one https://www.channingcopper.com/ is 15A and uses a regular plug in cord. It does this magic by having a battery which also has some other advantages including qualifying for a tax credit.
I was pretty roundly panned when I brought that up in this thread: https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/question/battery-energy-storage-appliances
Let me add that the consensus was it would always be more reasonable to add electrical capacity instead.
Adding a battery to any plugged in device adds complexity, environmental impact and extra cost, both up front and ongoing. It should be looked at as a last resort, not a cool new feature. I would guess there are legitimate applications for this device, but it would be a very small and ever shrinking market. Companies want to make money, so they are marketing the product to people who neither need it, nor should they want it. From that standpoint, it's kind of vile.
I read the thread and it's just based on speculation by a couple of people and not based on many facts. Electric upgrade costs can easily equal the higher cost of this unit and having a smallish backup battery that I could plug my refrigerator into during a power outage and keep it going for days is a real benefit. That it apparently qualifies for a battery storage tax credit tilts the econmics further, although I can see arguments that it really shouldn't get such a large subsidy.
Getting back to the original question, this seems to be a viable solution option.
Here's an interesting analysis of electric panel upgrade needs and costs for electrification. https://www.pecanstreet.org/2021/08/panel-size/
"Pecan Street’s new analysis found that up to 48 million single-family homes in the United States may need electric service panel upgrades before they can fully electrify – upgrades that could come with a big price tag."
"Electric panel upgrade costs for a home can range from $1,000 to $5,000, and it can take weeks to hire a licensed electrician and navigate the electrical permitting process"
They also provide a sizing tool https://www.pecanstreet.org/electrification-tool/
Yup, my circuit upgrades for kitchen and heat pumps have cost about $1k each time. In Wisconsin and Illinois here.
Also, there's no EPA Energy Star residential oven and a lot of programs base their appliance funding on the EPA so there's no rebates to incentive homeowners to switch from gas to electric cooking appliances.
Deleted
Really? In what way? Its a real battery that meets the tax credit requirements. I agree that it's questionable for the credit to apply to the full cost of the unit, but it's not a scam or ponzi scheme.
I'd like to add that I have no idea how good this product is, but to see it referred to as vile and a scam in these comments without any evidence is over the top and really reflects poorly on this community.
I liked it!
Thank you for raising that option and the old thread on the topic. A curious set of tradeoffs with battery peak shifting appliances!
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I had a different case where code enforcement required a gas stove be removed, and we had to go to a 120V induction cooktop and loose the oven, over a similar capacity issue. In that case the issue was not infeasibility of running new wire, but low income/low budget constraints. In my area heat pump water heater installs get large credits for subpanel upgrades, but there's no subsidy for cooking appliance wiring.
Help me understand your problem.
It seems unlikely you want to install a fully electric kitchen in a building with less than a 50 amp service.
Let’s say the building had a 50 amp service code would allow you to install more than 50 amps of breakers in the panel. I don’t recall if the code had an upper limit but seems like 150% in breakers would likely run without tripping the main.
Walta
The kitchen has 40A service and it's infeasible to upgrade. The home has a gas stove/oven, a compact dishwasher and is heated with electric resistance. Upgrades must be to code, so no funny business.
Re-reading your question and this comment, I have to say I'm confused. If you have 40A service, why does your range need to be less than 30A? Just get the 40A model and be done with it. There are plenty of options.
Any range that locks out the oven during cooktop use will have that feature baked into the total required current rating.
The 40A is for the entire home, including dishwasher, heating, lights, etc. It's not "unsafe" to install a 40A rated range in such a case, but would likely lead to peak load conflicts.
Similar needs have lead to EV charger chains which timeshare charging. It's not obvious how to timeshare these particular appliances, though I note that the dishwasher peak load is ONLY during water heating and THAT is something that would timeshare neatly.
The main panel only has 40A? Wow. I did upgrade a 1950s home from 60A service to 100A. The electrician was not prohibitvely expensive for me, but everyone's income is different ... and that house wasn't in California either :)
Obviously there will be more problems down the road than a stovetop/oven, like adding a heat pump.
I could see this situation happening more and more. If all-electric kitchens are done, either for indoor air quality reasons or carbon footprint reasons, then a lot of housing stock will face your problem, especially for income limited households. I've upgraded 3 old kitchens that had gas/LP instead of a 50A service, and each time I paid out of pocket for the circuit. This is just one reason I rant and rave about focusing on retrofits instead of new builds.
40A will be tough.
The way our demand calculations work (yours are probably the same) is no matter the rating of the range it is treated as a 6kW load. So even if you install a 3kW or 12kW cooktop, you still have to use the 6kW demand value.
This means even if you find a smaller range, it won't pass code, there is not enough demand left to satisfy plug and lighting loads.
Your option is to go for plug in cooktop and something like a combination microwave/convection oven (I have one of these as my 2nd oven and it works great). Each of these are now plug in stand alone devices so the ratings add up. That will get you bellow the 40A limit.
(Responding to Akos #33 here)
Yeah, there are two separate but related issues -- complying with the code, and also having a practical solution. For the most part the code is pretty conservative when it comes to avoiding nuisance trips.
Your best option might be a relay interlock if you’re stuck within the limits of an existing 40A circuit. You can get current sensing relays from mechanical and electrical supply houses, they are commonly used in the HVAC trades on commercial projects. These relays operate a set of contacts when an adjustable amount of current flows through the current sensor. You could use a relay like this to, for example, lock out the oven if more than some set amount of current is being drawn by the cooktop. The downside here is that the cooktop (or the oven, depending on how you wire things) then has priority and will “preempt” the other appliance when it draws more current. That could make for some annoying problems with your cooking down the road if the chef was t paying attention to the unique system.
You could house the relay in a large metal junction box (also available from electrical supply houses). You might need a second relay capable of handling the current of the appliance being controlled, with the current sensing relay controlling the larger relay. None of this is a problem code-wise, it’s just unusual to see residential systems setup like this. If you go this route, I recommend putting a pilot light somewhere near the low-priority appliance and wire that light to illuminate when the appliance is locked out by the other appliance. This would help to avoid confusion when the lower priority appliance is preempted by the higher priority appliance’s current requirements.
As far as I know, there are no ready made cooktops or ovens with a feature like this, so you’d have to implement your own if that’s what you want to do.
Bill
He's asking about a combo range, not separate cooktop and oven.
Even fewer options for that, but it's probably possible to fit a cooktop over a "regular" oven. A nice thing about induction cooktops is that they typically aren't very deep. It would be worth checking about cooling though -- I know some (notably Kitchenaid) cooktops are picky about having sufficient cooling.
Bill
Bill -- If the cooktop and oven are separate devices, doesn't each device have to be on a separate circuit, and the sizing of the circuits within the capacity of the service? I just don't see any way around that.
Using a separate cooktop and oven would make it easier to load shed one or the other. Right now I'm liking the idea of load shedding electric heat when the range is active. Cool would be delaying a dishwashing cycle (suspending the cycle) during a shedding event.
Range + oven + dishwasher is a rare event, but as @BILL notes it could get confusing. Doubly so to the next owner :-)
Normally yes, each hardwired appliance is supposed to be fed with a dedicated circuit of sufficient capacity to operate the appliance. If, however, you have a load shedding system, you can be more creative. The issue is that inspectors might look more closely at such systems, even though it's technically permissible to do things like this (but it might require an engineer to sign off on the design). I design interlocks all the time at work, but since I'm the engineer, they're by definition all done as "engineered projects".
It would be possible to interlock the cooktop, range, and dishwasher, but you'd have the issue of operator confusion, and also the very real possibility of problems like someone turning on an extra burner on the cookstop and interrupting the dishwasher in the middle of a cycle. You would need to be very careful setting priorities to minimize the chances of problems.
I would suggest looking at load shedding systems made for use with generators, where this kind of need comes up more often. These systems typically can set priorities for different loads, and would do what you want. I've never put in such a system without a generator though, and I'm not sure of any intended for stand alone use without the rest of the generator system (specifically the ATS). You could chain multiple current sensing relays together to accomplish what you want to do, but it would get complicated and would require some relay logic to do it.
Bill
If it's no funny business then the answer is simple, you need a unit rated for 40A or below. You have to go off of the manufacturer's rating.
As the saying goes, "...do you really want a 1/4" drill? or do you really just want a 1/4" hole?"
So echoing what Bill led with... you should think hard about what you are really trying to accomplish, but more importantly, what tradeoffs are you willing to make.
You don't say if the unit is provisioned with 40A/120v service, or 40A/240V (I presume the latter, but who knows). Given what you said, I am guessing that this is either a detached ADU, or possibly an RV. In either case, sounds like the overall space is small. If you don't need built-ins, there are single-burner induction cooktops (https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/testing-an-induction-cooktop) that plug into a standard 120V/15A outlet. (but maybe look further into the RV world, since I imagine a lot of those appliances are optimized for smaller space/power constraints.)
Otherwise, the other option might be to think along the lines of "peak augmenting" instead of "load shedding" (e.g., the battery concept). But adding something like solar/battery storage, might put the cost of trenching at $x/ft in perspective...
40A 240V
And it's a condo in a larger building, not particularly small.
There are convection wall ovens with 15 amp draw, and cooktops the draw relies on how many burners. You could build out a wall oven under counter[I have done so] and if you get lucky, you might fit a cooktop over it. No breaker too large, if you get lucky you can fit it in the space of a range
I found an interesting video from Ben's Appliances and Junk on Youtube where he talks about stoves, and at minute 12:15 he talks about Impava induction cooktops and how their products avoid the general problems with other brands when it comes to repairs. It might be helpful for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiN4oKxxPQg&t=35s