34 Comments

1. 
   AndyKosick | Mar 16, 2019 10:30am | #1

   Can't say how much I appreciate the work of Minotair and CERV. I think you disagree with me on this Martin but I think affordable, high performance housing desperately needs a true magic box. Not heating with a ventilation system or ventilating with a heating system but a single air moving system (that can be distributed), and heat, cool, dehumidify, and ventilate as needed. Minotair and CERV are as close as anyone has ever come to this in my opinion. I know they market these as ventilation but hope they are not asleep at the wheel and have this in the back of their mind. If they could push the heat output to 10k at 0F and perhaps develop a stale air intake that toggled between a bath and kitchen duct for ventilating and a central location for recirculating these things could be everything but a range hood for a small home, townhouse, or apartment.

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Mar 20, 2019 07:31pm | #10

   Thank you Mr Kosick for your appreciation!

   Our team does work pretty hard to go forward. You'll be pleased to learn we put a lot of sales and marketing efforts to mostly promote our PentaCare V12 Compact Air Treatment Units like the all-in-one HVAC solution for Passive Houses and Multifamily Buildings in some niche markets (as long of course the heating and cooling loads can be met within the capacities of our units, which is often the case).

   Stay tuned!

2. 
   Trevor_Lambert | Mar 16, 2019 01:23pm | #2

   I like the idea of the Minotair, but looking at the price and the specs, I just can't see how this would ever make sense. If it could actually replace a minisplit and at the home, you could justify the price tag (maybe). But it's pretty clear that is not the case. It's really just an ERV with modestly higher efficiency than other models that are one quarter the cost.

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Mar 20, 2019 06:08pm | #5

   With all due respect Mr Lambert, strictly comparing Minotair's Compact Air Treatment Units to just an ERV is totally unfair and clearly indicates a lack of knowledge you seem to have about that kind of products. Because in reality the PentaCare V12 Compact ATUs are 4 machines in 1:

   1- Dehumidifier capable of removing over 100 pints of moisture per day
   +
   2- Ducted heat pump with 11 500 BTU/h in cooling & 8700 BTU/h in heating
   +
   3- High Efficiency HEPA MERV15 air filtration device
   +
   4- The most efficient of all HRVs and ERV in North America as certified now by HVI capable of providing Net Zero Positive Ventilation© in many conditions, which is a technological breakthrough in itself.

   All that for 5998$ USD. Those are facts. I attached a brochure with all the specifications in case you want to know more and get more facts.

   
1. Expert Member
   MALCOLM TAYLOR | Mar 20, 2019 06:37pm | #8

   User...103,

   Can you expand on what Net Zero Positive Ventilation actually means. It isn't at all clear from the link you provided.

   As an aside on tone: You may find you face a more welcoming reception if you don't just come to a site and attack anyone who has questions about your product. Making your case with a bit of tack really helps.

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Mar 20, 2019 07:24pm | #9

   About Net Zero Positive Ventilation©:

   It's having an HRV or ERV capable of outputting more energy (heat) than the energy (total electricity consumption) the equipment requires to run in some conditions. One tested example of that is the PentaCare V12 having an HVI-certified SRE (Sensible Recovery Efficiency) of 116% while getting inside 100 CFM of 32˚F outdoor air. Actually no other manufacturer can offer that level of efficiency as it's the first time such results were achieved. The tangible result is being able of providing fresh air AND helping heating at the same time in those conditions with the air temperature getting out of the equipment at around 102˚F (resulting in an ASE of 178%).

   On your aside on tone: I'm sorry if you felt offended as it was not the intent. As you know while reading a text it's hard to get the real tone the author wants to transmit contrary to a verbal communication. Also, you have to know that English is not my mother tongue but I'm learning every day to increase my knowledge of the English language. So I do thank you for your constructive feedback Mr Taylor.

   Still, when Mr Lambert writes "It's really just an ERV with modestly higher efficiency than other models that are one quarter the cost." it's still very far from the truth as I clearly indicated using facts and I don't see any harsh words being used, unless you consider "an attack" when someone tells somebody else they lack clearly some knowledge about something? Again, please enlighten me where I was off.

1. Expert Member
   MALCOLM TAYLOR | Mar 20, 2019 08:37pm | #12

   I've edited this comment. I think my first instincts were correct. Alex is a bit thin-skinned and needs learn to calm down a bit.

2. 
   Trevor_Lambert | Mar 21, 2019 11:24am | #13

   I don't want to get a in a big debate about this, but some of your "facts" are more subjective interpretation than objective fact.

   -all heat pumps dehumidify
   -all HRVs have filters, most can recirculate air
   Now unless we consider all those devices as two machines in one, I don't think it's reasonable to call yours four machines in one. Maybe yours is better at filtering, maybe it's better at dehumidifying, but those are differences in performance, not function.

   -8700BTU/h is at 47F (8C). Frankly, the 8C rating is almost irrelevant. I know my house doesn't even require heat at an outdoor temperature of 8C. A more useful number is 5600BTU at 17F (-8). Another useful number would be xxxxBTU/h at -15C or -20C, but you don't provide it in your documentation. I have a strong suspicion that it drops to a low enough number and COP as to be unhelpful for advertising, to put it in the nicest possible way.

   -You invited the comparison to a conventional HRV by putting it through the HVI specified testing. It IS a fair comparison, because under the testing conditions the heat pump is contributing to the total efficiency numbers. It's not like you can get 116% efficiency at 100CFM of fresh air supply WHILE providing 8700BTU/h (really more like 6500, if we're using the same outdoor temperature) of heat, as you are implying. No, it's one or the other. You can put it on a duty cycle, but it still all comes out in the wash. 6500BTU/h (estimated at 0C) at 50% duty cycle is only 3250BTU/h. 100CFM at 50% duty cycle is only 50CFM. If you bump it up to 200CFM@50% in order to get the effective 100CFM, then goodbye goes the 116% SRE (would be about 97%, using a linear interpolation of the data for 250CFM and 100CFM). So a more honest reporting of what the unit is capable of is 97% SRE at 0C, plus 3250BTU/h. Is that enough supplemental heat to supplant another heat source? In most cases no. So it's a simple equation, how much more does the unit cost than what it replaces? What it replaces is an HRV, plus the energy cost of the supplemental heat. It just doesn't work out. In the rare case where the entire heating load of the house is 3kBTU, you'd be miles ahead to just provide that with electric heat and a conventional HRV, which could be had for at least $4000 less than the Minotair and cost maybe $20 a year more to operate. That's a long payoff time for the Minotair.

   As I said, it's an interesting device, and if money was no object I'd probably buy one. For most of us, cost is a factor.

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Mar 26, 2019 02:08pm | #22

   Mr. Lambert,

   You dispute the fact that we cannot say out Compact ATUs are 4 machines in one by saying all heat pumps can dehumidify (which is absolutely true) and that all HRVs have filters and some can do recirculation (again, it's true). But at which levels?

   So let's compare apples to apples here:

   As our heat pump (HP) function has a cooling capacity of almost 1 ton (12 000 BTu/h) at 11 500 BTU/h as calculated using AHRI 210/240 Protocol like every serious HP manufacturer, let's see how much moisture the best of those 1 ton units can remove (ducted and ductless): it ranges from 1.9 pints to 2.7 pints per hour (2.3 pints on average). The PentaCare V12 removes 4.7 pints per hour (112 pints max per day), more than twice the average, as calculated using AHAM DH-1 Protocol. So the reality is to be able to remove the same amount of moisture someone would need to have a dedicated dehumidifier along one of those HP.

   So yes, it does the job of a stand-alone dehumidifier in that capacity range.

   HEPA MERV 15 (or F9) standard filtration: How many HRVs or ERVs can you name Mr. Lambert that has the same level of High Efficiency filtration off the shelves, as standard, plus with a seal all around the frame to ensure a real efficient filtration job? Please let me know when you'll find one a real equivalent (and don't forget the seal). But until then, someone will need a stand-alone filtration device to provide that level of high efficiency air filtration.

   So yes, like it or not, our Compact Air Treatment Unit do the job of 4 machines in one compact, indoor-installed, package.

   And you say you live in a house where you don't need any heating around 47˚F (8˚C), well that's great for you, probably a Passive House? That's the way to build from now on! But 99% of the people in North America do need heating at that temperature and we're glad to help them while bringing fresh air at the same time like I've previously written.

   In conclusion, and at the best of my abilities, I humbly think I've done here some logic-based and factual comparisons. Our products are not magical and are not for every application possible, but they're still great for what they are and can do once they're compared to the work they do in total.

1. GBA Editor
   Deleted | Mar 26, 2019 02:17pm | #23

   “[Deleted]”

3. Expert Member
   Michael Maines | Mar 17, 2019 03:29pm | #3

   I talked with Alexandre De Gagne, the Minotair sales manager, at the NESEA conference last week. He said that you can hook a Mitsubishi mini-split to their controls to increase the heating and cooling capacity. I've been intrigued by the concept for a few years now, especially since humidity control is a growing issue in high-performance homes. I'm determined to work one into a project this year.

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Mar 20, 2019 06:37pm | #7

   We look forward of working with you Michael. It was great seeing you last week at NESEA.

4. 
   Trevor_Lambert | Mar 18, 2019 08:44am | #4

   That sounds interesting, but it doesn't change the financial picture. You're still looking at a cost increase of ~4000USD (presumably this is equipment cost only, not installed) for a 5600BTU/h heat pump. That's about the same I was quoted for a 18kBTU/h Mitsubishi, fully installed.

   Another point of comparison is that for far less money, my HRV coupled with a ground source glycol loop beats the V12's SRE at -25C by a wide margin (72% vs ~98%).

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Mar 20, 2019 06:24pm | #6

   Another important fact here to compare apples to apples: when you're talking about coupling a ground source glycol loop to an HRV, the regular citizens will have to pay thousands of dollars to get such a setup. Because most people don't have neither the skills or the needed equipment to do so, the reality is the vast majority of people will have to pay at least 6000$ and up (drilling the ground + equipment + pipes) to get an increase in performances like you mentioned. And that is only if you city permits you to drill and/or have the place to drill, etc...

   So a question for you: how many HRVs or ERVs are capable of providing 100 CFM of fresh air inside a building while the outdoor air is at 32˚F and once inside gets out of the equipment at around 102˚F without any other equipment or process? I'll give you the answer: strictly the PentaCare V12 from Minotair. The tangible result: providing fresh air AND helping heating at the same time like no other, off the shelves, residential product can do.

1. 
   Trevor_Lambert | Mar 21, 2019 11:28am | #14

   You make a fair point about the practical difficulties of installing a glycol loop. I was speaking entirely from the perspective of a new build, where you excavating already and have access to under the house. In that case, the incremental cost of digging a couple of trenches and laying some pipe is just a few hours of excavator time and the cost of the pipe; in the ball park of several hundred dollars. For a retrofit, excavating would cost more and may not even be possible. I'm not sure I agree that that is the vast majority of people. But in a new build, with the option of either, I still say the glycol loop is far more financially justified, while acknowledging that even that might not really be justified.

   Yes, the PentaCare V12 is the only unit capable of providing net heat gain while providing fresh air. My contention, as I illustrated in my other comment (#13), is the amount of net heat gain isn't enough to justify the increased cost.

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Mar 21, 2019 01:25pm | #16

   It is unfortunate that you don't put all the pieces of the puzzle for everybody to see because it seems you obviously did not mention the price of a liquid to air exchanger like a Zehnder Comfo Fond L 350 which sells for 2473$ CAD (since you're in Canada). Right now in stock and at that price, at Small Planet Supply in Vancouver, BC. FYI that model is what we see mostly being installed in the field for glycol loop preheating.

   So I really don't know how you can mentioned that such a set up can be had for several hundreds of dollars only??? Maybe you were able to do all that on your own for almost nothing (if it's the case I'm glad for you). Because for most people it's 2473$ + cost of pipes + cost of digging + cost of commissioning = several thousands, not several hundreds like you wrote Mr Lambert.

   So the reality is still that for the vast majority of people they'll have to pay thousands of dollars to get such a setup (like I previously wrote).

2. GBA Editor
   Martin Holladay | Mar 21, 2019 02:12pm | #17

   Trevor,
   Your estimate of "several hundred dollars" is on the low side.

   Here's what I wrote in my article, "Using a Glycol Ground Loop to Condition Ventilation Air":

   "I talked to four people who provided estimates of the typical cost of a [glycol] ground loop and associated hardware (the water-to-air heat exchanger, circulator, and controls). These estimates ranged from $2,000 (the amount cited by Alex Wilson and Marc Rosenbaum) to $3,000 (the amount cited by Vermont homeowner Chris Pike, who evidently was quoted that figure by a contractor)."

3. 
   Trevor_Lambert | Mar 21, 2019 04:11pm | #18

   I mistakenly thought you were referring to only the under ground portion of the glycol loop when I replied, so I also only talked about the under ground installation cost. I'm sorry, that was my bad.

   So let's look at the numbers again. Let's stick to USD, since that's what we've been talking about all along. Even if we use the Zehnder unit, the most expensive option, you're looking at $2000. Add another $1000 for digging a trench and putting some poly pipe in it, another $1000 for installation of the exchanger and peripherals, and we're still well short of $6000. Yes, it can get higher, but it can also get lower. Ultimate Air sells one for much less, and you can build one for much less than that.

   As I already said, there's a general consensus that the glycol ground loop will never pay for itself, so it's a pretty low bar to begin with. For the sake of expediency, I will retract the statement that the glycol loop is a better option.

1. GBA Editor
   Martin Holladay | Mar 21, 2019 04:17pm | #19

   Trevor,
   As I wrote in my article, "If this level of savings is typical [the savings documented by Peter Schneider for a glycol ground loop in Vermont], then the simple payback period for a ground loop is about 4,400 years."

2. 
   Trevor_Lambert | Mar 21, 2019 07:17pm | #20

   Martin,

   I think the payback period is a little on the pessimistic side. I could submit a blog detailing my build and installation of my glycol loop, how much it cost and how much energy I got out of it if you are interested.

3. GBA Editor
   Martin Holladay | Mar 22, 2019 05:42am | #21

   Trevor,
   GBA is always on the lookout for guest blogs -- especially guest blogs from designers, builders, or homeowners who understand how to use energy monitoring equipment. Feel free to send me an email for more information: martin [at] greenbuildingadvisor [dot] com .

5. 
   coldclimatehero | Mar 20, 2019 08:26pm | #11

   I specify the Minotair exclusively in my builds and consulting practice for Passivhaus projects.
   A Minotaur V12 will do everything a high end HRV or ERV can do only better and with greater efficiency, and with a real COP.
   When coupled with an Earth Tube a single Minotaur currently provides all the fresh air and heating load in a cold climate, TFA159m2, two story residence, virtually eliminating any backup heat requirement.
   The Minotaur V12 can alto be programmed to master a slave air handler to increase the volume in larger buildings, gently delivering heat with the ventilation air; a goal of Passivhaus design.
   It can also provide a ton of cooling, which in a Passivhaus is usually enough, given the performance of the envelope.
   The user interface is friendly yet there is also an array of additional information and programming available for those who like to play with their systems.
   If you are building air tight and efficient buildings you need this type of product.

6. 
   Trevor_Lambert | Mar 21, 2019 11:31am | #15

   "When coupled with an Earth Tube a single Minotaur currently provides all the fresh air and heating load in a cold climate, TFA159m2, two story residence, virtually eliminating any backup heat requirement."

   I am highly skeptical of this claim. Can you show your work?

7. 
   kevin_in_denver | Apr 07, 2019 02:25pm | #24

   "Earth tubes and Trombe walls are dated concepts, says GBA senior editor Martin Holladay. You are entertaining two ideas from the 1970s,” he says. “Both ideas have been substantially discredited, but, like the walking dead, it seems that it takes more than a stake through the heart and a bunch of garlic to keep these ideas where they belong."

8. GBA Editor
   Martin Holladay | Apr 07, 2019 03:42pm | #25

   Any GBA readers interested in earth tubes may want to read this article: "All About Earth Tubes."

9. 
   srivenkat | Jun 20, 2020 12:31pm | #26

   For the Pentacare, does the phrase "When all the electricity is deducted" under SRE include just the fans or does it include the fans + HP compressor energy?

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Jun 20, 2020 02:27pm | #27

   Hello Venkat. During the SRE calculation all the electrical energy is taking into account. So yes, in the case of the PentaCare V12, the fans + HP compressor electrical energy is accounted for to have a neutral base of reference for comparison. Its a real "Apple to Apple" baseline comparison, showing how much heat energy a unit captures while using the same amount of electrical energy. This is what the SRE is all about, nothing else.

1. 
   srivenkat | Jun 22, 2020 09:48pm | #28

   Thanks, Alex. Also, I am wondering if the 136W max fan power mentioned in the brochure is per fan or both fans together. Also, is the compressor a dual stage compressor or does it run single speed. I ask because HVI lists 740W for 100 CFM (SRE 116), so if the compressor consumes 725W that leaves 15W for the 2 fans together for 100CFM, right?

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Jun 26, 2020 02:32pm | #29

   Hello Venkat. Attached is a PDF with very detailed explanations directly related to your questions. Please let me know what you think. Also, is it possible to know what you do in the industry?

   
1. 
   srivenkat | Jun 29, 2020 10:30am | #30

   Thanks for the document, Alex. I am a home owner. The calculations mentioned in the document make sense to my (lay) mind. A couple of observations:

   1. You might want to mention that the 280W is at MERV-15 filtration, so the context is clearer.
   2. It is mentioned that for the shoulder seasons, the compressor repeatedly charges the coil. Does it mean it's cycling on/off? If so, could this be avoided to a large extent with a variable speed compressor? I ask because, my Samsung refrigerator has a DC invertor driven variable speed compressor for energy savings. As I am sure you know, it has gotten into the general psyche of Green thinking that anything cycling on/off is old/bad and variable speed means new/savings.

   EDIT: Added the last sentence above.

   Thanks again.

2. 
   alex_de_gagne | Jun 29, 2020 05:30pm | #31

   Hello Venkat. Thank you for your observations.

   Still, both are not fully accurate. In reality, there are not. Here's way:

   Your point # 1: the MERV-15 air filtration is done 100% of the time, independent if the unit is in recirculation mode or in air exchange mode. So it's false to say that our highly efficient air filtration takes 280 W as it's being "piggybacked" on top of the all the other operations. The 280 watts you're referring at is the combination of the 2 fans + compressor when providing fresh air + cooling (or + heating or + dehumidification) in a precise example as indicated in the document I put online June 26th 2020.

   Your point #2: again, part of the very unique ways of operating as a fresh air appliance (amongst other functions like heating, cooling, dehumidification and filtering the air), there's nothing wrong stopping the compressor once we have enough heat in the coil to preheat the outdoor air. On the contrary as it saves energy.

   And I totally have to disagree with you when you're comparing your fridge compressor to a fresh air appliance compressor used in a very different ways: one to make a rectangular box a big vertical cooler and freezer and the second one doing a lot of stuff like capturing heat energies (latent + sensible) amongst other things to treat fresh air. Both are using compressors but really not always in the same way, especially in fresh air applications.

   And ultimately, please don't spread some information publicly if you're not sure at 100% of what you're mentioning as it could hurt a hard-earned respectable reputation for a cutting-edge HVAC manufacturer like us.

   If you need further in-depth tech info for your personal needs (as you're a home owner), please contact directly our tech support at [email protected]. Thanks.

10. Expert Member
    MALCOLM TAYLOR | Jun 29, 2020 08:28pm | #32

    Alex,

    "And ultimately, please don't spread some information publicly if you're not sure at 100% of what you're mentioning as it could hurt a hard-earned respectable reputation for a cutting-edge HVAC manufacturer like us."

    Since you seem to be pretty liberal with the advice for other posters, let me again give you some back:
    You aren't g0ing to make very many friends replying to good-natured enquires like the one from Venkat if you then tell them what they can and can't talk about on a site you don't run. Perhaps you would do better sticking to the technical side of your company, and finding someone with some better social skills to handle interactions wth the public.

11. 
    srivenkat | Jun 30, 2020 05:45pm | #33

    Hello Alex,

    #1: What you mentioned about MERV-15 filtration happening as an "additional" benefit, is what I was suggesting could be added to the document to further explain the energy usage; right now there's no mention of MERV-15 in the document. In other words, I was trying to help the product. I wasn't suggesting that 280W is consumed for the filtration alone.

    #2: I wasn't trying to show the product in a negative light in the context of variable-speed vs. fixed speed; it's perfectly fine if the single speed decision better fit the current design of the product. Rather I was trying to point out the desirability of adding an explanation for this to the document so "Green" minds are satisfied. That's all.

    I am glad we have these kinds of products available and I complement Minotair on the product.

1. 
   alex_de_gagne | Jul 02, 2020 09:50pm | #34

   Hi Venkat Y.,

   #1: The document you saw is a specialized document, strictly aiming at understanding how to modelize that very special D+HVAC machine, nothing more. For more general and at large technical specifications on the unit, one can get the general brochure of the PentaCare V12 on our website.

   #2: I do thank you for your last kind words. They are really appreciated.