19 Comments

1. Expert Member
   MALCOLM TAYLOR | Jun 12, 2017 09:55pm | #1

   Biomimicry
   "No organism we know of puts its lungs, unsheltered, outside its body"

   Great analogy.

2. 
   epom47 | Jun 13, 2017 11:16am | #2

   Alternative strategy
   A much cheaper diy alternative might be to place the ducts along the top side of the ceiling then build air tight chases around them with sheating. Follow this with any kind of insulation you like. The air handler could be treated the same way. This would, in essence, be like bringing the ducts inside the home. This might be a lot of work but the expense would be minimal for a diy'er.

3. Expert Member
   MALCOLM TAYLOR | Jun 13, 2017 11:25am | #3

   Epom,
   Sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. Above the ceiling you have the roof structure to be navigated. At best ceiling joists, more commonly the bottom chords and diagonal members of trusses. How you would frame, air-seal and then cover it with insulation is hard to imagine.

4. 
   Elden Lindamood | Jun 15, 2017 10:51am | #4

   You can lead a horse to water
   My mother recently bought a 1980's walk-out ranch house in western ND, climate zone 6. I visited for the first time last winter and it was raining in the house. She said, with alarmingly little urgency, "that happens when it is sunny out".
   She asked me to go into the attic to find the roof leaks or "where the snow is blowing in through the soffits". I found, instead, a vintage 3 ton AC unit with 1" rigid insulation taped all over it and "insulated" flex duct snaking all over the poorly insulated attic. The rigid insulation was saturated from condensation. The flex ducts were literally filled shut with ice in the low spots, compressing the scant insulation layer beneath them. The sun would come out, melt some ice, and it would find it's way to the nearest hole into the house. There was no evidence of roof leaks, even around the attic fan.
   I sat her down at the dining room table and told her she heeded to get a new AC system installed, INSIDE THE THERMAL ENVELOPE, and remove the old one from the attic. Then air seal and insulate the attic much better (incidentally she also used 1200 gallons of propane last winter).
   Her response was "The water will evaporate from the ducts by the time I need the AC on". She is also still convinced that snow is blowing in through the soffits despite my evidence that is is not and in fact can't because there are no vent chutes to connect the soffits to the attic.
   Lesson: Let's not forget we are up against the general public. If one contractor tells them it is a $40,000 fix, and another tells them it is a $400 fix, the majority of people will believe the latter, science and common sense be damned. Things that make us cringe are the norm, and what concerns us seems inconsequential to far too many.
   Nevertheless, I will persist.

5. Expert Member
   Dana Dorsett | Jun 15, 2017 11:58am | #5

   Try a $4000 fix @ Elden Lindamood
   "If one contractor tells them it is a $40,000 fix, and another tells them it is a $400 fix, the majority of people will believe the latter, science and common sense be damned."

   Try to investigate the ~$4000 fix:

   In more cases than not a 3 ton AC with the ducts in the attic has a ton or so of load that's just from the location of the ducts in the attic and the associated duct gains, leakage, etc.. The remaining 2 tons of capacity is at least 1.5x oversized for the actual 1% load. So the real cooling load for the HOUSE is likely to be no more than 1-1.3 tons, but it could even be on the order of 3/4 tons with the air leaks to the attic & sagging attic insulation are corrected. Of course a Manual-J is better than a WAG, but the WAG probably isn't that far off.

   Depending on the floor plan a single 1 ton or 1.25 ton cold climate mini-split may be able to cool the whole shebang more comfortably & cheaply than the noisy Medusa of moldy flex in the attic, and also heat most of the place 75% of the time at about half the cost of heating with propane (or less). If the mini-split keeps up with the cooling load sealing up the registers to the ice-maker in the attic (lowering both the heating & cooling load) would be easier to argue, without having to start the 5th grade science lesson all over again.

   The napkin calculation on heating costs goes like this:

   ND retail propane is running about $1.40/gallon in recent years, so she probably spent ~$1700 on heating this season. It's been as high as $2/gallon back when WTI crude was priced closer to $100/bbl, but there was also an extreme spike in 2014 when it went to $4.50/gallon. See:

   https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SND_DPG&f=W

   ND residential retail electricity has been reliably under 10 cents, ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a )and with the high penetration of zero marginal cost wind power in that state there is growing downward pressure on wholesale electricity pricing- it's not likely to go over 10 cents any time soon. Even assuming an as-used COP of 3 (HPSF 10.2, well below the nameplate 13-ish HSPFs of current cold climate mini-splits ), a dollar of electricity buys her 102,000 BTU of heat delivered into the house.

   That's more than just the 91,600 source fuel BTU content of a gallon of propane. At $1.40/gallon dollar only buys 0.71 gallons of propane. Burned in a 95% efficiency furnace or boiler that delivers 91,600 x 0.71 x 0.95= ~62,000 BTU per dollar, without even correcting for distribution losses, or the cost of the electricity used.

   When it's sub-zero outside the as-used efficiency of the mini-split will be less than that, but when it's above 30F it'll probably be higher, but even at -10F but if the EIA electricity & propane pricing is true in her case, the cost of the heat coming out of the mini-split will still be on-par with that of condensing propane at sub-zero temps. The total capacity of the mini-split probably isn't enough to cover the load at -10F, and the heat distribution would likely be terrible at -10F, so the propane burner is going to stay, but the mini-split would cut the propane use by half or more, replacing the $800-900 of propane burned with $400-500 of electricity use, for a net savings of at least $300/year, but it could be as high as $500/year. The thing eventually pays for itself just on heating season savings within the anticipated life cycle, but it'll also save during the cooling season. It'll probably pay for itself in COMFORT right away.

6. 
   heidner | Jun 15, 2017 05:50pm | #6

   RE:You can lead a horse to water
   I would also gently remind your mother that stagnant water in ducts - are great breeding places for legionnaire disease... and the air moving over the water when the ducts unfreeze are a wonderful means to spread the Legionella bacteria in the house. Visit a local pharmacy and buy about 100 face masks for her to wear while the air conditioner is in use... it is a some what subtle reminder of how dangerous the situation can be...

7. Expert Member
   MALCOLM TAYLOR | Jun 15, 2017 09:32pm | #7

   Dennis
   If Elden's mother is anything like mine, he would probably be better off saving his breath to cool his pie.

8. 
   JDuchek24 | Jun 15, 2017 10:16pm | #8

   Attic Ducts Buried in Cellulose - CZ5A / CZ6A
   I realize that burying insulated attic ductwork with cellulose isn't recommended in the eastern (moist) half of the US, but is anyone aware of actual condensation issues from "properly" buried (but not spray foamed) insulated ducts in the upper half of CZ 5A or lower half of CZ 6A (Great Lakes region, etc.)?

   Most of the cautionary stories seem reference humid, southern locations or the use of uninsulated, poorly sealed duct work, and therefore I'd be interested to hear about anyone's "up north" experiences when the guidance linked in this article was generally followed. BPI certified contractors here in the Chicago region have suggested / quoted me the loose-fill over ducts solution and therefore I suspect that they regularly do it without issues. Obviously not ideal, but I am juggling the near-term and long-term options for a poorly insulated attic with ductwork.

   Thanks in advance.

   Joe

9. 
   Elden Lindamood | Jun 21, 2017 12:46pm | #9

   Thanks all
   Thanks for the napkin calc Dana. I'll add it to my arsenal, but when I hoisted the mini-split flag it was pulled back down with the typical "I don't want to look at that ugly 'box' on the wall". Malcolm's quip is apt.
   I had thought of the legionnaire's argument too, but hadn't plied it. That may, in fact, speak more to her anxieties than spending $1500/yr on propane.
   Joe, I thought of covering the ducts too. They are hung from trusses, draped on top of the insulation, crossing each other, and generally poorly done. That wouldn't solve the AHU issue either, so I think the better solution is to make them go away.

10. 
    brucet | Jun 22, 2017 10:44pm | #10

    Fiberglass batts under the roof?
    What happens if one simply places insulation between the roof rafters?

11. GBA Editor
    Martin Holladay | Jun 23, 2017 06:19am | #11

    Response to Bruce Thompson
    Bruce,
    Assuming that there isn't any rigid foam above the roof sheathing -- and we know that Ted's roof doesn't have any exterior foam -- you can only install fiberglass batts between the rafters if you also create a ventilation channel between the top of the fiberglass batts and the underside of the roof sheathing.

    Creating this type of ventilation channel will only work if (a) there are soffit vents at the base of each rafter bay, (b) there is a ridge vent at the top of each rafter bay, and (c) there are no dormers, skylights, valleys, or hips that interfere with the ventilation channels.

    To learn more about all of the different ways to create an insulated sloped roof assembly, see this article: How to Build an Insulated Cathedral Ceiling.

    Now, to your question:

    Q. "What happens if one simply places insulation between the roof rafters?"

    A. One sets up a risky situation that encourages moisture accumulation in the sheathing, mold, and possible sheathing rot. And one is guilty of a code violation.

12. 
    r5portals | Mar 06, 2019 12:04pm | #12

    Please see my contribution to this conversation, in blog posts:
    https://energyconservationhowto.blogspot.com/search/label/Attic%20HVAC
    I freely share lessons from work I do by-myself as a weatherization contractor with engineering and technical writing experience. I find much fault with treatment of HVAC air flow with ignorance of energy involved that must be correctly examined with Bernoulli principle. Fast-moving fluid is unlike squeezed toothpaste. Design to keep the air moving at steady velocity, never dead-headed. Never to leak from flimsy and ragged fittings, hacked-in on the job. HVAC ducts should be buried under insulation, hard-covered too. Putting a furnace in an attic is not ideal, but will happen. Let's look for constantly-improving methods, through sharing.

13. 
    kneewall | Mar 07, 2019 04:22pm | #13

    Would it be feasible or advisable to encase a short run of ducting in the attic (about 4 feet) in rigid foam, with airtight seams? If not, what would be the problems with that approach?

14. 
    LorieWhitaker | Sep 12, 2019 02:02pm | #14

    Hi all, I hope you can help. 1965, two story house, located in DOE 3A (hot/humid), Dallas, TX. I've got a 21 seer machine cooling my upstairs (1000 sq ft) and some old Carrier cooling the downstairs (1000 sq ft). 3 years ago, I had new siding put on the top part of the house (bottom is brick). This required the vinyl siding to be removed, the layer of styrofoam insulation removed, the original wooden siding taken off and the tar paper the house was wrapped in removed. Then we put in new insulation (R15), covered the walls in plywood, applied vapor barrier and new LP siding.

    Ever since then I have one vent that does nothing but condensate. It is coming right off of the AC plenum, so I was thinking it was the difference of the temps (keep it around 74 during the day, down to 64 at night). I'm running a dehumidifier 24 hrs upstairs.

    The AC inside units are both located within the house, however the upstairs unit doesn't have a proper ceiling on it. There is a piece of wood on top, but I know it's not stopping any hot air as I can feel it when I open the closet it's in.

    My attic is very hard to get around it - you can't stand up in it. The ducts for the upstairs unit are in this attic. There is no thermal foam/reflector barrier at all, although I do have 2 whirly birds and 2 new passive vents to help move the air out of the attic (the 2 passive vents have resulted in a dramatic cool down in the attic after the sunsets, which is nice - i know this based on my power consumption). When I bought the house there was about 1/2" of fluff up there (original construction?) and we added up to 12" additional fluff (there's not much room to add much more or the entire attic would be full LOL).

    The attic ductwork is flex duct work. It was new when the AC was put in 7 years ago.

    Recently I had another HVAC company come out and put in a new bathroom vent and they told me they believed the duct work was full of water. I called out the original HVAC company and they took a look and said they saw no water. Now, I know I should get up there myself, but I haven't.

    The new HVAC company recommended that I get metal ducts put in instead of the flex ones. They believed that would stop the moisture.

    After reading this thread, I'm honestly not sure what to do. The temps in Dallas can get over 105 in the summer, so I'm not sure if bringing the attic into the conditioned air is feasible. When I bought the house I was told the pitch of the roof is so steep they can't get in there to apply the spray foam insulation...has that changed do you think? Are there other duct types I should be looking to replace the flex ones with? Would that even change anything? Is it the fact that we sealed up the house much more than it had been before and now it can't properly breathe?

    For what it's worth, I'm not having any issues with the unit downstairs, but those ducts are within the AC part of the house. Prior to this, the downstairs AC unit cooled the entire house (not too well). Upstairs never got below 75 at night and the ducts were those box metal ones from god knows when and never had moisture issues.

    Any suggestions are appreciated. If it's something I need to save up for to do it right, I will.

1. 
   Jon_R | Sep 12, 2019 02:33pm | #15

   If I understand correctly, you are getting condensation on AC ducts in unconditioned space. I'd push harder on getting someone to apply spray foam to the ducts.

1. 
   LorieWhitaker | Sep 12, 2019 02:51pm | #16

   You understand correctly! So the ducts are that flex duct...would that withstand the spray foam? And how much should they apply to get the R factor I need?

1. 
   Jon_R | Sep 12, 2019 04:26pm | #17

   This appears to be a good reference:
   https://basc.pnnl.gov/resource-guides/encapsulated-ducts#quicktabs-guides=1

2. Expert Member
   Dana Dorsett | Sep 12, 2019 04:45pm | #18

   >"I do have 2 whirly birds and 2 new passive vents to help move the air out of the attic (the 2 passive vents have resulted in a dramatic cool down in the attic after the sunsets, which is nice - i know this based on my power consumption). "

   Turbine vents usually depressurize the attic sufficiently to pull conditioned air up through the air=-leaky ceiling into the attic, which increases the cooling energy use. The passive vents probably reduced that negative effect by allowing more air to flow from the the outdoors, but it's still almost always better from an energy use point of view to NOT use turbine vents or powered attic vents of any significant size.

   In your location it may be worth removing/sealing all roof/attic vents entirely, and air sealing all leak between the attic & outdoors for both energy use and moisture control reasons. In humid climates like the Gulf Coast (including up to Dallas) vented attics usually bring more moisture into the attic than they purge. Even if the insulation layer is at the attic floor you'll probably be better off making the roof the pressure boundary of the house, in which case the absolute moisture levels (but not the temperature) of the attic will track that of the conditioned space below, which should reduce the condensation potential dramatically.

   Peak attic temperatures and most of the moisture can be reduced by installing perforated alumized fabric radiant barrier the underside of the rafters over the entire attic ceiling. The perforated fabric type is preferred, since that guarantees a drying path toward the interior, whereas the overpriced bubble pack or the unperforated aluminized fabric types are true vapor barriers, which could create moisture traps. At about 5 perms the perforated goods still limits the rate of moisture flow, so even if there is some minor air leakage at the soffits or imperfectly sealed vents the main volume of the attic won't be subjected to the high dew points of summertime air freely flowing through the attic, which is what you have right now. Air leakage from the outdoors is the primary enemy you're fighting here.

   Pictures of the roof, vents, turbine vents and attic from both the interior and exterior might be useful.

15. 
    oldbungalow | Apr 30, 2020 05:28pm | #19

    Hi I don't understand this comment, "Dorsett suggests that a low-e silver-colored paint on the underside of the roof deck, or a perforated radiant barrier under the rafters, would make a difference during the cooling season (with only modest increases in heating costs during the winter). The first step, though, is more insulation."

    Is this to reduce heat radiating through the deck (as opposed to increasing SRI from the outside) into the attic space? Does the silver paint also reflect heat back into the space?

    Speaking of SRI in cooling season, how significant is an ENERGY STAR roof with say, 0.25 SRI over a traditional asphalt roof?